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Topic review - Calling all Sims class DD fans
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  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
USS O'BRIEN (DD-415) is one of the units with few photos between January 1942 and her loss. The last photos of O'BRIEN after her fatal damage are by and large distant and poor quality. But, as Dick said, she had the aft small deckhouse (formerly for the searchlight) at her end. This close-crop image I scanned at NARA maybe of better quality.

Have you taken the time to go through all the pages in this thread on the SIMS class? I have posted most of these images and comments along the way in my searching at NARA.

Image

Of the five "NorNY modified" SIMS (this was the initial King Board mods, the ChNY mods were an improved configuration that saved weight and prepared for when twin 40-mm mounts were available);

DD-409 SIMS ... Lost before any additional upgrades
DD-410 HUGHES ... had small former searchlight deckhouse removed and the "Diamond Pattern 20-mm arrangement" installed at MINY in July 1942.
DD-414 RUSSELL ... unclear when the two additional 20-mm guns were added in the "Square Pattern", likely at PHNY, retained configuration until her upgrade with two twin 40-mm mounts at MINY in June-July 1943.
DD-415 O'BRIEN ... unclear when the two additional 20-mm guns were added in the "Square Pattern", likely at PHNY in July 1942, lost in this configuration. (See DANFS entry)

DANFS entry;
O-Brien was retained at Pago Pago for local escort work. On 26 May she supported the occupation of Wallis Island, previously taken over by the Free French and joined Procyon 19 June for the return voyage to Pearl Harbor.

Operating out of Pearl Harbor, the ship performed escort duty and acted as patrol and plane guard. She got underway 17 August 1942 with TF 17 to reinforce the South Pacific Force, screening the oiler Guadalupe. While escorting a convoy of transports enroute to Guadalcanal, joint TFs 17 and 18 were attacked by the Japanese submarines I-15 and I-19 on 15 September 1942. Wasp was sunk; North Carolina and O'Brien were damaged by torpedo attacks.


DD-416 WALKE ... unclear "IF" she was in the "Square Pattern" after Midway, but unlikely (she did have some repair work done at Brisbane in May 1942?). She had the small former searchlight deckhouse removed and the "Diamond Pattern 20-mm arrangement" installed at MINY in August 1942.
Post Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
The deckhouse was there. It shows up better in this photo:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0541508.jpg
And also in this one:
https://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/0541529.jpg
Post Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:27 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
Here is one of the photos dated 5 August 1942.

Thanks! :woo_hoo:

Rick E Davis wrote:
Before the twin 40-mm mounts were installed, the "surviving" SIMS class units in the Pacific went through one of two interim configurations to get two additional 20-mm guns installed on the aft deckhouse after Battle of Midway.

Some of the NorNY group retained the small searchlight deckhouse (minus the searchlight) atop the aft deckhouse, and two 20-mm guns were added aft of the two 20-mm guns already mounted there. I call the layout of the 20-mm guns in this case the "square" pattern. This photo of USS RUSSELL (DD-414) illustrates the layout.


Cool. This configuration is new to me. I just wanted to ask a question about your photos Russell on 27-28 October 1942.
Was there another ship in this configuration?

DD-409 SIMS - sank in the coral sea
DD-410 HUGHES - "diamond"
DD-416 WALKE - "diamond"

What about DD-415 O'BRIEN? Friedman in the US Destroyers has DD-415 scheme similar to a "square". But I'm not sure if it's correct. Despite this photo's poor quality, I'm almost sure the small searchlight deckhouse isn't there.
https://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0541522.jpg
Image
Post Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:54 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Here is one of the photos dated 5 August 1942.

Image

Before the twin 40-mm mounts were installed, the "surviving" SIMS class units in the Pacific went through one of two interim configurations to get two additional 20-mm guns installed on the aft deckhouse after Battle of Midway.

USS MUSTIN had what I call the "diamond" pattern for four 20-mm guns arrayed around the searchlight, as seen on USS HUGHES.

Image

Some of the NorNY group retained the small searchlight deckhouse (minus the searchlight) atop the aft deckhouse, and two 20-mm guns were added aft of the two 20-mm guns already mounted there. I call the layout of the 20-mm guns in this case the "square" pattern. This photo of USS RUSSELL (DD-414) illustrates the layout.

Image
Post Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
I'm a bit baffled by your question?


:sorry:
I have only war diaries, some photos and a few assumptions. I could be wrong.

Rick E Davis wrote:
As I said before yard periods during early 1942 were short for ALL Atlantic destroyers because of convoy/escort requirements. Commonly these short periods were spelled out as "primarily" for voyage repairs. Repairing those necessary items for the next mission (examples, broken radio, radar, sonar, etc) were the priority. "Extras" to add things like armament upgrades and radars, were done during these periods if enough time existed. 28 July to 5 August 1942 would've been adequate for any additions. But, based on the June 1942 report on modifications made at BosNY and the 5 August photos, nothing additional were added during the July-August 1942 period. The photos taken on 5 August 1942, may have been done to make-up for NOT having taken photos after the June 1942 modifications.

During USS BUCK's June 1942 yard period, she got the "ultimate" four 20-mm guns for her class (two on the aft deckhouse and two forward of the bridge). They were arranged differently than the final configuration when two twin 40-mm mounts were installed, when three 20-mm guns were installed forward of the bridge and one aft. You can see that the aft deckhouse was pretty well cleared for "when" the twin 40-mm mounts would be installed and an elevated platform added for a single 20-mm gun. The Pacific Fleet SIMS class units got more 20-mm guns prior to addition of 40-mm guns with four 20-mm guns added on the aft deckhouse, plus two forward of the bridge, making six total. The Atlantic Fleet destroyers prior to the North Africa campaign, were not as concerned about AA armament, because they seldom encountered attack from the air while on convoy duty. After the fleet was engaged in the Med and was being attacked by German air power, the concern changed.


Thank you.
I saw your post about the Norfolk Navy Yard group (DD-409, 410, 414, 415, 416), their photo in December 1941;
Charleston Navy Yard group (DD-411, 412, 413, 417), their photo in January 1942 (but I don’t understand why DD-413 Mastin was different on 14 June 1942);
photo of DD-418 Roe on 6 June 1942 and DD-419 Wainwright on 30 June 1942 (both very similar to Charleston Navy Yard group, but there are some differences - 6 K-gun and ladder from the aft superstructure to the aft torpedo tube platform)

However, I haven't seen the photo of DD-420 on 5 August 1942 and I don’t know what it looked like...

Wainwright on 30 June 1942 from from Navsource
Image
Post Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 4:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
I'm a bit baffled by your question?

War Diaries don't always note yard periods as such as you point out. Deck Logs normally indicate yard work, but again maybe not in much detail. Departure Reports or the short "Reports" titled "Accomplishment of Important Military Alterations", required in the Atlantic Fleet by ship CO's to be sent to the Chief of Naval Operations. Oddly, the Pacific Fleet didn't require these reports.

As I said before yard periods during early 1942 were short for ALL Atlantic destroyers because of convoy/escort requirements. Commonly these short periods were spelled out as "primarily" for voyage repairs. Repairing those necessary items for the next mission (examples, broken radio, radar, sonar, etc) were the priority. "Extras" to add things like armament upgrades and radars, were done during these periods if enough time existed. 28 July to 5 August 1942 would've been adequate for any additions. But, based on the June 1942 report on modifications made at BosNY and the 5 August photos, nothing additional were added during the July-August 1942 period. The photos taken on 5 August 1942, may have been done to make-up for NOT having taken photos after the June 1942 modifications.

During USS BUCK's June 1942 yard period, she got the "ultimate" four 20-mm guns for her class (two on the aft deckhouse and two forward of the bridge). They were arranged differently than the final configuration when two twin 40-mm mounts were installed, when three 20-mm guns were installed forward of the bridge and one aft. You can see that the aft deckhouse was pretty well cleared for "when" the twin 40-mm mounts would be installed and an elevated platform added for a single 20-mm gun. The Pacific Fleet SIMS class units got more 20-mm guns prior to addition of 40-mm guns with four 20-mm guns added on the aft deckhouse, plus two forward of the bridge, making six total. The Atlantic Fleet destroyers prior to the North Africa campaign, were not as concerned about AA armament, because they seldom encountered attack from the air while on convoy duty. After the fleet was engaged in the Med and was being attacked by German air power, the concern changed.
Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
USS BUCK (DD-420) mods in 1942.

Several years back at NARA I went through all twelve SIMS class units BuShips files (along with cross checking Weekly Overhaul Reports I had gone through and were available) to document the changes made to the units. I wanted to understand the configurations of the units that went to the Pacific in January 1942, and the three units that stayed in the Atlantic. Because of sparse photos of some units there were a lot of questions.


It's a great work. I often lack such information and I think I'm not the only one. It's time to publish Warship Pictorial "Sims Class" ;)

Rick E Davis wrote:
???-5 Aug 1942; at BosNY; Likely short yard period for minor repairs, no visible changes from the June 1942 yard period


War Diary DD-420:
Quote:
Tuesday, July 28, 1942
...0742 Moored port side to USS ROWAN, Pier 6, Navy Yard, Charlestown. Commenced Navy Yard, overhaul

Wednesday, July 29, 1942 to Friday, July 31, 1942.
Moored to dock in Navy Yard, Charlestown, Massachusetts, undergoing navy yard overhaul.

1 August
Undergoing overhaul Navy Yard, Boston.

2 August
Undergoing overhaul Navy Yard, Boston.

3 August
Undergoing overhaul Navy Yard, Boston.

4 August
Undergoing overhaul Navy Yard, Boston.

5 August (+4 ZT)
Undergoing overhaul Navy Yard, Boston.
0755 underway for Casco Bay, Me., in company with U.S.S. WOOLSEY, U.S.S. EDISON, and U.S.S. LUDLOW. O.T.C. Comdesron 13.
1237 exercising at anti aircraft practice B-2. This ship did not fire. 1908 anchored in berth B, Casco Bay, Me.

Is 8-9 days overhaul a short yard period for adding two 20mm cannons?
Or is the date in War Diary incorrect and repairs did not start on July 29?
Post Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:06 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
USS BUCK (DD-420) mods in 1942.

Several years back at NARA I went through all twelve SIMS class units BuShips files (along with cross checking Weekly Overhaul Reports I had gone through and were available) to document the changes made to the units. I wanted to understand the configurations of the units that went to the Pacific in January 1942, and the three units that stayed in the Atlantic. Because of sparse photos of some units there were a lot of questions.

USS BUCK was pretty typical of the units in the Atlantic in early 1942, and got upgrades in piecemeal short yard periods between missions.

18 Aug-8 Sep 1941; at NorNY; King Board Mods (four 5-in, eight 50-cal MGs)

???-19 Apr 1942; BosNY; (found no text records) based on the 19 Apr 1942 photo, BUCK had the the bracket for FD radar installed and four K-Guns added while retaining one Y-Gun. How many of these changes were done during this yard period or done earlier?

29-30 Apr 1942; at BosNY; One day repair to repair Sonar (likely returned from shakedown of the 19 April yard period)

12-25 Jun 1942; at BosNY; Installed FD radar #294, all eight 50-cal MGs removed and four 20-mm guns installed, Y-Gun removed and two K-Guns added

???-5 Aug 1942; at BosNY; Likely short yard period for minor repairs, no visible changes from the June 1942 yard period

28 Aug-24 Nov 1942; Collision repairs, also was upgraded to the latest "Ultimate armament" of two twin 40-mm mounts, four 20-mm guns

It does appear that USS BUCK was the first of the class to be upgraded with twin 40-mm mounts. Many of the original BENSON-GLEAVES class units weren't upgraded with 40-mm guns until after Operation Torch during return yard periods. Her sister USS ROE (DD-418) appears to be the next to be upgraded in April 1943 with the rest following before the end of 1943.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2024 1:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
This reply will address the missing FD (Mk 4) radar antenna. I’ll comment on BUCK’s yard work for mods in 1942 in another message once I gather that info.

The first FD radar prototype was installed on a destroyer in September 1941. Production systems started to be installed in December or January. It took awhile to get Mk 4 radars installed on all the USN ships with fire control directors. In early 1942 the Atlantic Fleet destroyers were really stressed. Just about every destroyer was constantly being tasked for convoy or task force escort missions. Unless there was major damage, none of the destroyers had time for major mod work. What the USN did was do whatever could be done during the short yard periods between convoy missions. So a few 20-mm guns would replace some of the 50-cal MG’s during one of this short yard periods. The same thing happened with Mk 4 radar installation. Several destroyers (BENHAM, SIMS, BENSON-GLEAVES classes) only had enough time to install part of the system. Maybe only the wiring and antenna brackets were installed during a short yard period. Plus as I mentioned the supply of antennas and other radar components were tight, so they may not have been available during the short availability’s. Plus new construction actually had priority for new radar systems.
Post Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
I have one of these images (broadside) of USS BUCK (DD-420) that I scanned at NARA. There were a few modifications from the September 1941 configuration, in these April 1942 images. Specifically, the addition of SC-1 radar and addition of the mounting bracket for Mk 4 radar on the Mk 37 director, but the antenna has not been added. Also, the four K-Guns likely weren't installed in September 1941. When the K-Guns were installed, stowage of the midships floats were altered to a "stacked" method. Otherwise, her weapons configuration with a Y-Gun, 50-cal MG's, and NO 20-mm guns yet match the September 1941 configuration, but with application of Ms 12R(mod) camo scheme.

By August 1942, USS BUCK had her 50-cal MG's replaced with 20-mm guns and her Mk 4 radar was installed.


Thank you for answering.
USS BUCK is a very interesting ship. Y-Gun + K-Guns is an unusual configuration.
There are three photos on the archive website on November 1942
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/19-N-36000/19-N-36641.html
https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/19-N-36000/19-N-36642.html
https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/19-N-36000/19-N-36643.html

This is overhaul from 26 august 1942 after collision with Atwatea. USS BUCK in ultimate configuration with 2x2 Bofors.
Friedman wrote about Sims:"ultimate armament refits began about January 1943 (DD411) and continued at least until that October (eg DD413)".
Was DD420 the first in November 1942?

As for the 20 mm guns, according to War Diary:
-Overhaul from 13 to 25 june 1942 at Charlestown Navy Yard (4х20-mm guns added?)
-Overhaul from 28 july to 5 august 1942 at Charlestown Navy Yard (6х20-mm guns added?)
But both of these assumption are very speculative...

Image
Post Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:15 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Is the MK 4 on the mK37 director not installed or has this been censored?
Post Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2024 3:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
I have one of these images (broadside) of USS BUCK (DD-420) that I scanned at NARA. There were a few modifications from the September 1941 configuration, in these April 1942 images. Specifically, the addition of SC-1 radar and addition of the mounting bracket for Mk 4 radar on the Mk 37 director, but the antenna has not been added. Also, the four K-Guns likely weren't installed in September 1941. When the K-Guns were installed, stowage of the midships floats were altered to a "stacked" method. Otherwise, her weapons configuration with a Y-Gun, 50-cal MG's, and NO 20-mm guns yet match the September 1941 configuration, but with application of Ms 12R(mod) camo scheme.

By August 1942, USS BUCK had her 50-cal MG's replaced with 20-mm guns and her Mk 4 radar was installed.
Post Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all USS Sims class (DD) fans  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
On my last trip to NARA a couple of weeks ago, I came across some photos in textual records that I never expected to find. In the textual records for USS BUCK (DD-420) I found EIGHT photos of USS MORRIS (DD-417) and TWO of USS BUCK (DD-420) taken in August-September 1941 at Boston Navy Yard while these two destroyers were getting the King Board Mods done. The King Board Mods were accomplished in at least two different configurations on the SIMS class when they cutdown the searchlight tower, removed the 53 mount, installed eight 50-cal MGs, etc. The other mod version retained the small searchlight tower deckhouse with the searchlight relocated atop it. I had never seen ANY onboard views of the SIMS class destroyers getting the initial King Board Mod configuration with eight 50-cal MGs. Out of these twelve photos, I had only seen one before, a profile view of USS MORRIS in stream show this configuration from a moderate distance dated 3 September 1941. Finding ANY in yard photos at Boston Navy Yard is very rare.


Hi.
Two more photos USS BUCK (DD-420), 19 april 1942 in King Board Mods whith Y-gun + 4 K-gun?
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/19-N-29000/19-N-29234.html
https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/19-N-29000/19-N-29235.html
Image
Image
Post Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2024 4:04 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Agreed. There are some examples - Cleveland and Alabama come to mind - where the 5N went higher than the main deck, but that was the exception, as far as I can tell, not the rule.
Post Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 5:51 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Hi Ian,

I think I'm in agreement with you and Rick that the 5-N didn't extend up; or at least I can convince myself that it didn't. I appreciate the drawing, I'm moving onto the starboard side and it will be a nice reference. I especially like how it illustrates the color difference between the hull and superstructure.


Thanks and regards,
Post Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 5:13 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Hey Bruce - for what it's worth, I made a small scale drawing of WALKE in August 1942 in the same Ms12R mod scheme and remember running into this same confusion when drawing the ship (and others of the class in the same pattern). I honestly don't think the 5-N was carried above the hull to the superstructure (of course, I could be wrong). Rick's photo of the ship at MINY is very helpful to see the contrast.

Here is the drawing, in case it helps:

Image
Post Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:28 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Hi Rick,

I had noticed the fading and general "needs a painting" that you highlight. And, having done a couple of ship refits, modern of course, I pretty much figured that the hull would be the last thing painted; after all, it takes the worst beating at sea.

My plan is not to go nuts with the paint and I had pretty much made up my mind to paint it using the "rule of thumb" you indicated. After all, cutting masks and painting a model of this size takes some effort and I really prefer building to painting. So, nothing totally over the top coming from this direction.

thanks for the continued support and great information!
Post Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 7:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
Timmy,

Given that USS WALKE is being painted in August 1942 at MINY, the darkest paint almost has to be 5-N. By August 1942, only 5-N, 5-O, and 5-H were being used as standard paints. EXCEPT, for a few experimental Camouflage Schemes and the budding Amphib Greens usage.

Bruce,

Something else that should be pointed out. USS WALKE is seen finishing up her overhaul/refit at MINY. Normally, the LAST work task to be done was painting. Note, that her walkway has recently had a primer layer applied. The deck overall doesn't look like she has had new paint applied and that likely would follow the refreshed walkway. I have to wonder if those areas along the round-down deck edge have been painted yet? All of the superstructure appears to be fresh 5-H and 5-O paint. Also, note that the hull 5-N areas look rather "worn" with areas of fading/salt stains. I have to wonder if she didn't get a fresh coat of paint applied to the hull after the in yard photos were taken? The broadside photo, is dated the same as the in yard views, but could be a day or two latter. However, it was normal to send a ship out on a trial run before finishing a yard period to be sure everything is working properly.

You can paint your model as you see fit. Just remember the "so called rules" of Ms 12R(mod). 5-N and 5-O on the hull and 5-O and 5-H on the superstructure. There have be cases where overlap of paints occurred between the two zones on the ship. But, generally those were rare. One of the reasons why Ms 12R(mod) is such a pain in the A-- to apply (along with what does the pattern on other side look like?). :big_grin:
Post Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
My thanks for the thoughts and observations. Much appreciated.

I guess, this basically comes down to the "paint it how you want it" based on my observations and if anyone calls it out as wrong. fall back on the old IPMS code cop reply....."Prove its wrong".
Post Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2023 12:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Sims class DD fans  Reply with quote
I wouldn't trust my eyeballs to judge with such high contrast in the surrounding areas to confuse them.

I screenshotted each of the "dark" colours and labelled them below. As you can see, the 5-S? on the bridge bulwarks actually match the 5-O much more closely than it does the hull 5-S. Even for the same colour in the same location (bridge bulwark 5-S?), there are noticeable variances.


One could probably cherry pick another area for each of those categories to emphasize or de-emphasize the differences between them.
All I'd trust my eyes to say is that there are darks and there are lights. Whether the darks are the same is not at all easy to determine.


Attachments:
colour tricksies.png
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Post Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:00 pm

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