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Topic review - Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Okay! Now I just need to decide how do I make the surgery on the middle tube on Jervis build.
Post Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I think that these two photos show what we may all have been looking for: photographic evidence that the aft set of TTs on Jervis was a PQR.
In the first (looking forward) the outermost tubes on both mountings are in line ie the aft mounting was no narrower than the forward one:
Attachment:
Jervis 1943 5 15 arr Malta a.jpg
Jervis 1943 5 15 arr Malta a.jpg [ 85.64 KiB | Viewed 103 times ]


In the second (looking aft) there is an obvious gap where a centre tube would have been:
Attachment:
Jervis 1943 5 15 arr Malta b.jpg
Jervis 1943 5 15 arr Malta b.jpg [ 90.3 KiB | Viewed 103 times ]


Also visible in both photos is what I interpret as the (largely unprotected) local firing control position at the edge of the PQR which I think is in fact also visible in Brett's photo:
Attachment:
Jervis 1940 9 13  ish perhaps Samos perhaps - Copy.jpg
Jervis 1940 9 13 ish perhaps Samos perhaps - Copy.jpg [ 47.89 KiB | Viewed 103 times ]


This overheard view shows it in the same position on a PQR on an I Class destroyer (Icarus):
Attachment:
Icarus 1942 10 19 i.jpg
Icarus 1942 10 19 i.jpg [ 82.62 KiB | Viewed 103 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:17 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Dear Jamie,

That was the April 1941 edition theoretically corrected to 31 March 1941. Interestingly the previous edition (October 1940, theoretically corrected to 30th September 1940) does not make this exception for Imperial. To my mind this raises the possibility that one of her sets of PQR TT mountings was damaged by her mining in October 1940 and replaced with a spare PR set during her repairs at Malta November 1940 - March 1941. If so I wonder which?! Given that the damage was concentrated aft towards Imperial’s stern perhaps the aft set of TTs? Frustratingly the Admiral Superintendent’s report only details damage to and repairs made to Imperial’s structure (hull) and the photos I sent you copies of don’t help.
Post Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
The previous image of Jervis at Alex shows the forward 5 set TT trained to beam strbd, the torpedoman splinter enclosure may be there, but the aft quad set has no enclosure, the previous strbd image I posted shows no control position on the aft set.
Her IWM image for mid 42 shows no enclosure on either TT set.
As with all equipment these primary control positions may have been repositioned spanning time, the small useless image in Langtree`s book Pg 91, shows what could be a change of primary control to the aft set? but very had to distinguish.
For early/mid 41 it would appear the aft set had no enclosure fitted.


Attachments:
JERVIS, 05.41.jpg
JERVIS, 05.41.jpg [ 144.59 KiB | Viewed 116 times ]
JERVIS, mid 42.jpg
JERVIS, mid 42.jpg [ 114.97 KiB | Viewed 116 times ]
Post Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:02 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
dick wrote:
A good point Tim and if I had turned a couple more pages in CB 01815B I would have seen this in relation to the I Class:
Attachment:
PQR I Class.jpg

(Still poor staff work however as "PQR" should have been listed along with the other TT options in the Notes section!)


Dear Richard,

Could you please tell me the date for CB01815B? I haven't yet modified my Imperial you see... Presumably it's dated before she was sunk :heh:
Post Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Is there a decent drawing (or a photo) how such a PQR tubes set would look like? On the pentad tubes, there is a control position on top. What would happen with it?
Post Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
A good point Tim and if I had turned a couple more pages in CB 01815B I would have seen this in relation to the I Class:
Attachment:
PQR I Class.jpg
PQR I Class.jpg [ 7.29 KiB | Viewed 201 times ]

(Still poor staff work however as "PQR" should have been listed along with the other TT options in the Notes section!)
Post Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:19 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
dick wrote '... "PQR" is a slight typo by the staff officer compiling this list' - in fact, this was probably not a typo. Norman Friedman in British Destroyers From Earliest Days to the Second World War (Barnsley: Seaforth Publishing, 2009) wrote "... removal of the centre tubes in the I class, their pentad revolving (PR) mounts being redesignated pentad quadruple revolving (PQR) mounts." He refers to a CAFO dated 15 February 1940. Thus it appears that PQR mounts DID exist, and it is entirely possible that JERVIS was fitted with one.
Post Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:20 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Here is the relevant column for the J Class in the half yearly return CB 0815B dated April 1941 (theoretically correct as at 31st March 1941):
Attachment:
Jervis 9xTT a.jpg
Jervis 9xTT a.jpg [ 17.88 KiB | Viewed 228 times ]


Re a. PR means pentad, QR means quadruple so "PQR" is a slight typo by the staff officer compiling this list!
Attachment:
Jervis 9xTT bb.jpg
Jervis 9xTT bb.jpg [ 17.49 KiB | Viewed 228 times ]

But a distinction is clearly being made between Jervis and what the rest of her class were supposed to have.

Re b. the number of torpedoes carried on Jervis is clearly shown as 9 not 10.

Then at the bottom of the page confirmation of what we see in photos, that Jervis did not at that time have one set of TTs replaced by a 4" as she is not listed:
Attachment:
Jervis 9xTT c.jpg
Jervis 9xTT c.jpg [ 9.5 KiB | Viewed 228 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I am reading the Langtree book now, and got interesting note on Jervis there.
He writes there that:
Jervis got 4" AA gun instead of rear quintuple TA when going to mediterranean. As she came there, the 4" was landed, and a QUADRUPLE TA was installed instead. Is there a proof of her having one Quad and one Quintuple TA? I am building her, so would be highly interested to know...
Post Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:25 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
They are indeed excellent photos, the album contains some great images both rare and not seen before, thankyou for posting.
Of interest, one image within the album I would question is that labelled Defender.
It is not a D class and appears to be a H class of 2nd destroyer flotilla, highly likely to be Hotspur.
Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Excellent photos!
Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
some more photos showing Jervis sometime between May and December 1941 without any 2cm Oerlikons but 286 Radar

ImageIMG_0007 (3) by mjendrizzi, auf Flickr

ImageHMS Jervis by mjendrizzi, auf Flickr

ImageJervis by mjendrizzi, auf Flickr
Post Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:29 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
For your interest Dick, the apron gun.
Your points would be correct concerning the Breda possibility, although images can be deceiving the gun in question is far to large to be any small calibre weapon.
Taking into account it`s silhouette I can not think of any other weapon for that time period other than a MK II single pompom, given its weight it would have been fitted just forward of the apron.
As for the 286, taking into account the time and specialist installation requirements it is My opinion that it was highly likely fitted between 1-8th of April 41 whilst she was in drydock.


Attachments:
JERVIS APRON GUN.jpg
JERVIS APRON GUN.jpg [ 183.81 KiB | Viewed 216 times ]
Post Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
A very nice photo Brett!

Given the layout of Alexandria’s (western) harbour and the location of the city in relation to it, the location of the coaling wharf/gantrys and the buildings of the city on the skyline to the left (east) of them above Jervis’s fo'c’sle, Langtree’s photo is the correct way around. Moreover I have seen this camouflage paneling on the funnel extending around from the funnel’s starboard to portside in film dated 15 September 1940 and also on the portside of the funnel in an onboard photo dated December 1940. I am confident that they repainted both sides in one go back in late July. In G G Connell’s history of Jervis he describes in some detail an overall repaint at Alexandria on pages 58 & 59: “…the overall repainting of the ship …..six clear days in harbour…..light Mediterranean grey, dark grey, black for the bottom colour and funnel top….…Jervis, immaculate in her repainted livery, sailed at 0200/27th…..”

My interpretation of the vertical fixtures on the roof of the aft deckhouse forward of the 4.7” mounting (in your "late Aug into Sept 40" photo) is that these are ventilators (chimneys) etc for the wardroom and other spaces below. Identically located silhouettes can be seen on Jervis’s deckhouse in prewar photos. If there is something at the aft end of the deckhouse it seems to me that it is too small to be anything but something like a Vickers or Lewis gun – and it would be no surprise to find one of those there at that time. In any case, August/September 1940 is surely far too early for Bredas to have been captured and found their way to Fleet units. That opportunity only resulted from the defeat of the Italian Army by Wavell’s offensive which took place December 1940 - February 1941 after which parties of sailors were sent ashore to ‘liberate’ these weapons. In Jervis’s case it looks like she did not get any Breda’s until Matapan. Connell’s account describes how Mack put Jervis alongside the crippled Italian cruiser Pola and sent a boarding party over (armed with cutlasses!) which “…removed several Breda machine guns badly needed to augment the ships anti-aircraft defence.”

The frame of a 286 aerial is indeed quite clear at the top of the foremast in my photo. When was it fitted I wonder? Referring to the fitting of Type 286 Langtree says (page 32) “Jervis followed shortly afterwards in June 1941”. Howse “Radar at Sea” (page 73) says that “at the beginning of 1941… a few destroyers had the fixed aerial 286M radar, stocks of which had been sent to Alexandria (with ship-fitting staff)….” (You would think that Jervis as the senior leader of the Med Fleet might have been prioritized.) Howse then makes no mention of any destroyers in his radar account of the Battle of Matapan. Kingsley’s “Radar at Sea” has detailed ship-fitting tables with the dates and types of radar fitted to individual RN ships larger than destroyers through the war years. Unfortunately destroyers and smaller ships are grouped by class with generalised data. G G Connell makes no mention of radar in his account of Jervis during the period in question. At Matapan Mack is described as finding his way to the scene of battle by what he saw: "gunflashes and starshells". Maybe Tim has more information?
Post Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Great info, thank you!
Post Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:15 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Jervis, a rare image cropped and reduced.
Probably taken in late Aug into Sept 40, of special interest her funnel shows signs of painting and may indicate transition from 507A to her disruptive scheme, if so, it could also point to her repainting as a staggered affair and she may have been operating for a short period in 507A overall on port and disruptive scheme on strbd.
No oerlikons are fitted, only one carley float is fitted either side of the S.L. a gun possibly either a 20mm Breda or MK II single pompom is fitted on X gunhouse apron, and her foremast truck extension carries a S16 DF antenna.
The small port side image in Langtree`s book on pg 91 (if it is indeed port and not reversed) would probably have been taken late in the 4th qtr of 40, she appears to still carry the DF coil.
Dick`s cropped image May 41 shows two carley floats fitted either side of S.L. what it doesn`t show is that by that time the DF coil had been replaced with a 286M RDF antenna.


Attachments:
JERVIS, possibly late Aug-Sept 40.jpg
JERVIS, possibly late Aug-Sept 40.jpg [ 110.98 KiB | Viewed 267 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Hi, thanks! She was surely repainted after 2nd Sirte. Photos at IWM from december 41 (links some bit above) show the camo still in place. I actually think the repaint happened only after Alexandria frogmen damage.

Thanks for the photo. Langtree's book I will only get tomorrow...

Anyways, I started painting her, and my work thread is in picture section ;)
Post Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:39 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Re Jervis’s paint scheme and the black stern section, Tim has accurately quoted from the list of Jervis’s paint schemes on page 52 of Langtree’s book: “Sep 1940 – Dec? 1941: Mediterranean disruptive, AP 507A and AP 507C with black stern section.” However, somewhat confusingly, the immediately previous entry on the list reads: “21 Jul 1940-?1941: Mediterranean disruptive, AP 507A and AP507C” ie no black stern section until sometime in 1941. The two statements are incompatible.

Looking at the photographs in Langtree’s book, on page 91, in the chapter “The Mediterranean Theatre, 1940-41” there is a photo of camouflaged Jervis at Alexandria captioned as “newly painted”. She has no black stern section so there was certainly a time when she was in the “Mediterranean Disruptive” with no black stern section.

On page 125 there is another photo of Jervis in “Mediterranean Disruptive” this time with the black stern section. It is captioned: “Jervis in late 1941, with an unusual variation of her previous camouflage with a black panel added at her stern.”

I doubt that we will ever find enough photos to pin down exactly when this black stern section was painted onto Jervis but, based on the dates when it first appears in photos of another Mediterranean destroyer, I suspect it was a very late 1941 thing.

In the case of Jervis it was certainly after Matapan (27-29 March 1941). I have a copy of a photo of the fleet at Alexandria with Jervis, Kandahar, Hero, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant and Formidable all in frame. This dates the photo to sometime from 13th May 1941 when QE first arrived at Alexandria to whenever it was exactly that Formidable left Alexandria for repairs in the USA (July 1941?). In the photo Jervis has no black stern panel:
Attachment:
Jervis 1941 5 or 6  Alexandria Formidable - Copy.jpg
Jervis 1941 5 or 6 Alexandria Formidable - Copy.jpg [ 36.53 KiB | Viewed 325 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
tjstoneman wrote:
According to Langtree, the camouflage from September 1940 to December (?) 1941 was "Mediterranean disruptive, AP507A and AP507C with black stern section". No RDF, and no 20mm.


Great! That means I can build the Kelly kit as is for the Group Build I am trying to organize, and get her painted as Jervis, which was in fact much more distinguished ship ;)
Post Posted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:56 am

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