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Topic review - Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...
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  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I think I found the confirmation she was camoflated on 14 December battle.

This photo https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205141220 shows it clearly - the splinter shields on the front superstructure (around searchlights) are definitely darker then the ones around the 0.5mg stands.

This one also confirms it for the other side:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205141221

Both also show the 20mm on the middle superstructure. I cant tell if she has Oerlikons or 0.5 MGs forward, I have the impression that I can see a part of a 20mm shield. Quite sure there is 20mm actually.

No oerlikons on rear superstructure - the photograph is standing there and you see all area where one of these would later be.

EDIT: She definitely has both torpedo tube sets.

She also has the radar in place.
Post Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
507C upperworks and 507A hull was pretty common on destroyers. I'd sooner believe that than a somewhat anecdotal white and dark grey description without a supporting photograph.
Post Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I have not seen a photo of her with white superstructure - only the written description in Connell's book. There is a photo (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205144185), apparently taken during Operation Vigorous in mid-June 1942, showing her in a similar scheme, but the upperworks look far too dark to be white (accepting that interpreting some colours from black and white photos is difficult). In this photo she has four single 20mm guns and no quadruple 0.5" mountings - a change since she took part in 1st Sirte.

Although to a different scale, and in a different language, this webpage may be of interest: https://miniships1250.jimdo.com/2015/10 ... lotilla-1/
Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:06 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Very interesting! Unluckily neither Raven RN Camouflage nor the Connell Mediterranean Maelstrom is available here, will try to get these.
Any chance you could send me the photo of her in that white superstructure with black areas?

Would the shields be there more or less instead of railings?
Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
On further research, G. G. Connell Mediterranean Maelstrom (London: William Kimber, 1987) indicates that the change of camouflage took place in Malta during her repairs: "While in dock Jervis had been repainted in a new and experimental livery ... white painted superstructure and upperworks with a dark grey hull" (note that Langtree says the upperworks were AP507C, and Connell doesn't mention the black areas, which are visible in a number of photos).

As for the "Mediterranean disruptive" pattern, there is a drawing in Alan Raven Camouflage Vol One: Royal Navy 1939-41 (New York: WR Press, 2000) - although it shows her with a 4" HA instead of the after tubes (this was only carried for a period in 1940, after which tubes were refitted there) and RDF Type 286, which was fitted in June 1941 (and so was present during 1st Sirte - and not provided in the Flyhawk kit).

Splinter shields were at the deck edge outboard of each 4.7" mounting, thus for "A" mounting at the foc's'le edge, for "B" mounting at the edge of the shelter deck andfor "X" mounting at the edge of "X" gundeck; none were on the main deck.
Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
tjstoneman wrote:
According to Christopher Langtree The Kelly's (London: Chatham Publishing, 2002), JERVIS repainted at some time in December 1941 from a disruptive scheme (AP507A and AP507C) with a black stern section to a dark hull/light upperworks (AP507A/AP507C) with black bow and stern sections. She wore a black leader's band at the top of her funnel, with 14DF bands (red over black) below this. Her armament and electronics fit were largely unchanged from that depicted in the KELLY kit, although, like several other destroyers in the Mediterranean, she may have carried some captured Italian Breda AA guns. In early November 1941, two single 20mm Oerlikons were fitted on "X" gundeck. She had been fitted with splinter shields on the deck-edge, outboard of each of her 4.7" mountings


Thank you very much!
I just ordered the Kelly's book from the local library, would be available next week!
The most interesting question here is then - when was it repainted exactly ;) Pre-Sirte, or in course of repairs afterwards? She went to the dock after taking damage in the midget raid on Alexandria, and that's where I would think it is most likely... The exact look of her disruptive scheme would have been very interesting....

The splinter shields - you mean the ones around the gun mounts, or the ones on the main deck level?
Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
According to Christopher Langtree The Kelly's (London: Chatham Publishing, 2002), JERVIS repainted at some time in December 1941 from a disruptive scheme (AP507A and AP507C) with a black stern section to a dark hull/light upperworks (AP507A/AP507C) with black bow and stern sections. She wore a black leader's band at the top of her funnel, with 14DF bands (red over black) below this. Her armament and electronics fit were largely unchanged from that depicted in the KELLY kit, although, like several other destroyers in the Mediterranean, she may have carried some captured Italian Breda AA guns. In early November 1941, two single 20mm Oerlikons were fitted on "X" gundeck. She had been fitted with splinter shields on the deck-edge, outboard of each of her 4.7" mountings
Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I have a number of british destroyer kits in 1/700 here, and after looking what I have I think going to build a diorama about the First Battle of Sirte - I got nearly every ship or close sister in my drawer ;)

I got the Flyhawk's Kelly, but want to build her as a J-Leader, HMS Jervis. I have the impression that these two were nearly identical (both with large deckhouse aft, and same arrangement), but not sure completely. Could anyone help me here what changes shall I do? Also, what AA fit did Jervis have at Sirte, and what colors?
Post Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:00 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Nice, you can also see a space for smaller aft superstructure, compared to Kelly (as seen on photo 4). So we definitely have private ships coming, and I will have my Piorun... :heh:
Post Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
As I mentioned in another post. Flyhawk has shown pictures of what must be Javelin.

See picture nr 8

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Flyhawk-1-700-W ... SwmuNcwu8b

The hull does not have the fit for the aft torpedo tubes.
Post Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
The Flyhawk kit has the pennant numbers for both the Javelin and Jupiter so I would guess that, like their Legion which contains numbers for the Lance/Lively/Ghurka, Flyhawk will follow up the Kelly with those sisters as they showed the Lively at Shizuoka. Be nice to see more of the class
Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:44 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Fivi_1241 wrote:
Oh, that's right, sorry for the confusion.
Interestingly, it seems that HMS Javelin disappeared from Flyhawk's 2019 announcement. Maybe the company decided to cut down on destroyers, and Kelly boxing will include parts for private ships as well?


Got my Kelly’s the other day. Parts are just for leaders 1940 time frame with both torpedo mounts.

Did find that the old Revell/AMT/Matchbox kit from the 80’s is not too awful next to it. The hull size and shape of the old kit at least is very close to the Flyhawk kit. The lower hull even lines up good. The Flyhawk kit has much better armament. But the 3DM 4.7” mounts match up nice with the Flyhawk ones. The Flyhawk kit is pretty finely molded.
Post Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
correct
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... S%201a.htm
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... Napier.htm
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... _Kelly.htm
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:22 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Oh, that's right, sorry for the confusion.
Interestingly, it seems that HMS Javelin disappeared from Flyhawk's 2019 announcement. Maybe the company decided to cut down on destroyers, and Kelly boxing will include parts for private ships as well?
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:14 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I believe the flotilla leaders were Jervis, Kelly and Napier.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:15 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Quite a few interesting details to see here, including the elusive Delton raft.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:59 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
I don't think I said that JAVELIN was a flotilla leader; like PIORUN, she was a private ship - ie the same as the majority of these three classes.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:42 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
Neither of the kits is out yet, that's true, but apparently HMS Kelly will be released in its earliest configuration, with two torpedo tubes sets, and this can be seen in two pictures here:
https://modelbuilderinternational.com/f ... 1550229443
http://www.flyhawkmodel.com/html/xwgg/18/12/1973.html

I forgot that both Javelin and Kelly were flotilla leaders, thanks for pointing that out. Maybe there will be some spare parts to build other ships in later configurations, we'll see.
Thank you for information on Piorun's upgrades as well, combined with Polish sources it should be a great basis to build Piorun :thumbs_up_1: I think I'll go for May 1941 configuration, so there shouldn't be much to work on.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:34 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
As always, Wikipedia should not be considered as authoritative without checking - it often simpifies detail, or just "gets it wrong".

I don't believe that Flyhawk's kits of JAVELIN and KELLY been released yet; the only illustration of JAVELIN I have seen in online catalogues is a prewar photograph which may, or may not, represent the configuration to be represented in the kit! The JAVELIN kit is billed as "JAVELIN 1940" - but she landed her after torpedo tubes in mid-1940 and replaced them with a single 4" gun, so it's not clear which configuration will be represented

The ships of all three of these classes were built to the same basic design (the three leaders differed in having a larger after superstructure and other details, so any conversion from KELLY to PIORUN would need to take this into account). As the war went on, ships completing later incorporated some of the modifications applied to earlier ships whilst they were in service. In particular, the change for the stops of "X" mounting were ordered to be changed from aft (ie the guns "parked" trained dead ahead, and could not train within about 20⁰ of the stern) to forward by CAFO 1998/40 issued in November 1940. This would probably have been followed immediately for ships still in build, but ships in service would have made the alteration when they had time to do so. - As PIORUN commissioned that month, I would guess she was already fitted with the stops aft, but that's by no means certain.

As for other changes, for accuracy you would need to specify the date at which you wished to model her, and then find suitable photos. A good reference is Christopher Langtree The Kelly's (London: Chatham Publishing, 2002), which tabulates alterations to the ships' armament and camouflage schemes (despite the title, the book covers all three classes). It states that PIORUN completed with a 4" gun replacing her after torpedo tubes, but otherwise as designed; she had changes to her light AA weapons in late 1941 and again by early 1944; she also had changes to her RDF and DF fit at various stages; she had Type 286 RDF by February 1941.
Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:20 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all RN J,K-N destroyer class fans...  Reply with quote
You will be able to turn the J, K into an N class without much trouble.
They were all of the same basic design, essentially repeat series, the N class was slightly heavier.
There will of course be some issues concerning the flotilla leaders.
I do not have any of the Flyhawk, but their quality and detail would have to influence your choice.
Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:51 pm

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