The Ship Model Forum

The Ship Modelers Source
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:54 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post a reply
Post icon:
None
Username:
Subject:
Message body:
Enter your message here, it may contain no more than 60000 characters. 

Font size:
Font colour
Options:
BBCode is ON
[img] is ON
[flash] is OFF
[url] is ON
Smilies are OFF
Disable BBCode
Do not automatically parse URLs
Question
type everything in between the quote marks: "N0$pam" Note the Zero:
This question is a means of preventing automated form submissions by spambots.
   

Topic review - Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Excellent find, thanks for posting!

Jacob
Post Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Thought this would be of interest to some here, details of the passive sonar on the USS Cochino (some interesting images showing the streamlined sonar plus drawings as well as operating details). I hadn't seen this before, maybe it's also new to others:

https://www.mulsannescorner.com/models/Submarines/USS%20Cochino/AD1135105.pdf
Post Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Tom Dougherty wrote:
My resin 1/350 version of a Guppy submarine is in the “ What’s New” section. Unfortunately, the ModelWarships main page has not been updated to reflect the posting of my model as well as two additional models.

Tom


Here is Tom's Becuna:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
My resin 1/350 version of a Guppy submarine is in the “ What’s New” section. Unfortunately, the ModelWarships main page has not been updated to reflect the posting of my model as well as two additional models.

Tom
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:48 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
I'm not sure exactly when it was first at sea, but the idea appears to date from the 1920s, although the application was to provide an acoustic baffle for a destroyer sonar. The use of bubble curtains for quieting came right after WWII. I would guess that the GUPPYs got it around 1960, plus or minus five years maybe.

As for the Russians, I recall seeing a few things on some of their diesel boats that look like girth emitters, but I wasn't able to find much (I don't know what such a system is called in Russian).

I found an interesting paper on the subject (which you can access via sci-hub): https://doi.org/10.1190/1.1441340
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Vepr157 wrote:
Woodstock74 wrote:
Interesting, so the only possible visual indication of Prairie/Masker are what are effectively pipes I'm guessing running outside the pressure hull/exterior cladding?


Right. The hull emitters are often difficult to spot, but the stern ones are very apparent. Although it's not a fleet boat, this photo shows the aft piping on the Tang (the pipes look pretty much the same on GUPPYs):

Image


When did this system originally debut? Did the Soviets ever come up with something similar?
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:48 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Woodstock74 wrote:
Interesting, so the only possible visual indication of Prairie/Masker are what are effectively pipes I'm guessing running outside the pressure hull/exterior cladding?


Right. The hull emitters are often difficult to spot, but the stern ones are very apparent. Although it's not a fleet boat, this photo shows the aft piping on the Tang (the pipes look pretty much the same on GUPPYs):

Image
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Interesting, so the only possible visual indication of Prairie/Masker are what are effectively pipes I'm guessing running outside the pressure hull/exterior cladding?
Post Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Woodstock74 wrote:
Is this shot of the Tork's screw indicative of Fleet Snorkel screws? As this image is of her in dry dock in modern day, wanted to make sure what I'm seeing would be accurate to in-era. I'm specifically wondering about the slots in the screw boss trailing edge. Is this part of the Prairie system?

Image


That looks like the standard fleet boat propeller, which is what I assume the fleet snorkels kept. I don't believe any of them get Prarie-Masker as it required an engine to be removed. The holes in the propeller blades are tiny, so the best way to tell is if there is a girth emitter and pipe leading to the propellers like this, which the Torsk doesn't have:

Image
Post Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Is this shot of the Tork's screw indicative of Fleet Snorkel screws? As this image is of her in dry dock in modern day, wanted to make sure what I'm seeing would be accurate to in-era. I'm specifically wondering about the slots in the screw boss trailing edge. Is this part of the Prairie system?

Image
Post Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Tom Dougherty wrote:
Here’s hoping she stays just down the road. The plan by Patriot’s Point was to sink her for an artificial reef for divers. The exterior hull is in bad shape, but the interior is in excellent condition. It is the sole remaining Guppy III.

Yeah, the printed description of the 1963 edition is sparse, to say the least. If it is not a reprint, but an update, I would expect it covers Guppy III.

I do know that the Guppy III program was an early 1960’s effort. The motivation to modify existing Guppy subs to Guppy III standard was due to the slow build up of nuclear SSNs. This was partly due to the diversion of building to the Polaris SSBN program, and later the delays due to the loss of Thresher and implementation of SubSafe measures.


Someone posted images of the Clamagore taken recently and it appeared they were in the process of dismantling the upper deck structure, thus moving forward with the reefing plan? Man I hope not. Only one of her kind as you point out. That alone should be enough to spare her, surely? That and money, of course...
Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Here’s hoping she stays just down the road. The plan by Patriot’s Point was to sink her for an artificial reef for divers. The exterior hull is in bad shape, but the interior is in excellent condition. It is the sole remaining Guppy III.

Yeah, the printed description of the 1963 edition is sparse, to say the least. If it is not a reprint, but an update, I would expect it covers Guppy III.

I do know that the Guppy III program was an early 1960’s effort. The motivation to modify existing Guppy subs to Guppy III standard was due to the slow build up of nuclear SSNs. This was partly due to the diversion of building to the Polaris SSBN program, and later the delays due to the loss of Thresher and implementation of SubSafe measures.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Tom Dougherty wrote:
There are two versions of the Guppy submarine book. The 1956 edition book is an update of the WWII Fleet Submarine Manual, hence a highly technical, nuts & bolts coverage of submarine systems. It uses Becuna, SS319 as the example. Becuna was a Guppy Ia, so features such as the expanded 514 cell battery of Guppy II are probably only mentioned. Since it was published in the 1950’s, coverage of the heavily modified Guppy III e.g., Clamagore) are absent. There is a later, 1963 Edition Submarine book also listed on the site below. That appears to cover the later and final evolution, the Guppy III. Again a highly technical coverage of the systems in these boats, The Guppy III boats were literally cut forward of the control room and a 15 foot “hull plug” installed to create space for an expanded sonar suite. Externally, they all had the High Atlantic Sail and three PUFFS sonar fins on deck. You can see more in my coverage of Clamagore here: http://navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0834331.pdf

Best source for the books (least expensive) is probably Periscope Films. Here are the manuals, including both of the Guppy manuals.
https://periscopefilm.com/submarine-manual/



Came across your pdf the other night and grabbed it though until you pointed it out I wasn't aware you had written it! Very well done and it goes straight into my reference library. Love the Guppys and have been on the Clamagore before (about 11 years ago) as she's just down the road from me.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Tom Dougherty wrote:
So that book is an update of the WWII Fleet Submarine Manual, hence a highly technical, nuts & bolts coverage of submarine systems. It uses Becuna, SS319 as the example. Becuna was a Guppy Ia, so features such as the expanded 514 cell battery of Guppy II are probably only mentioned. Since it was published in the 1950’s, coverage of the heavily modified Guppy III e.g., Clamagore) are absent. There is a 1963 Submarine book also listed on the site below. Whether that covers Guppy III, I don’t know.

Best source (least expensive) is probably Periscope Films. Here are the manuals, including the Guppy manual.
https://periscopefilm.com/submarine-manual/


Thanks for the reply Tom. Reading through the description of the 1963 book it doesn't make any mention of Guppys so the Guppy-specific book (published in 1961) might be the way to go, though I'm now on the fence altogether, lol!
Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
There are two versions of the Guppy submarine book. The 1956 edition book is an update of the WWII Fleet Submarine Manual, hence a highly technical, nuts & bolts coverage of submarine systems. It uses Becuna, SS319 as the example. Becuna was a Guppy Ia, so features such as the expanded 514 cell battery of Guppy II are probably only mentioned. Since it was published in the 1950’s, coverage of the heavily modified Guppy III e.g., Clamagore) are absent. There is a later, 1963 Edition Submarine book also listed on the site below. That appears to cover the later and final evolution, the Guppy III. Again a highly technical coverage of the systems in these boats, The Guppy III boats were literally cut forward of the control room and a 15 foot “hull plug” installed to create space for an expanded sonar suite. Externally, they all had the High Atlantic Sail and three PUFFS sonar fins on deck. You can see more in my coverage of Clamagore here: http://navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0834331.pdf

Best source for the books (least expensive) is probably Periscope Films. Here are the manuals, including both of the Guppy manuals.
https://periscopefilm.com/submarine-manual/
Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:18 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Anyone have any thoughts about the book The Submarine Guppy Edition, https://www.amazon.com/Submarine-Guppy-United-States-Navy/dp/1935327143?
Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:17 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Tom, Jacob and CCC. Great information and clears it up for me. As usual a wealth of knowledge here :-)

Looks like Portsmouth sail is the go, and I might do a later GUPPY with the high sail.

Not sure when I'll get to the diorama, but will be sure to post it here when I do.

Thanks,
Darren
Post Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:45 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Some additional info for those interested via the Submarine Sighting Guide, June 1958 edition.

pdf is linked at the top of the page: https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... 31-2a.html

CCC
Post Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
As Jacob mentioned, the high Atlantic fiberglass sails were retrofitted on several of the previous Guppy conversions. Many of the Guppy operations were in the northern Atlantic and Pacific oceans, where wave heights could easily swamp the bridges of the two earlier step sail versions. The fiberglass was over a metal framework structure, with the bridge structure raised to the top.

An easy distinguishing feature between Guppy III’s and the earlier Guppy’s that received the Atlantic sail is that Guppy III also received the three PUFFS sonar fins on the upper deck. A more subtle feature is that they are 15 feet longer, due to a hull plug inserted forward of the control area, housing a more extensive sonar electronics suite.

The last surviving Guppy III, Clamagore, is to be sunk as an artificial reef for divers. It has been poorly maintained by the group at Patriots Point in South Carolina. Lots of corrosion and missing parts topside. The interior is in surprisingly good shape, however. Some sub vets have been trying to save her, but the group at Patriots Point seems determined to sink her.

I visited there two years ago and photographed it with my Nikon DSLR. I subsequently wrote an article for the SubCommittee Report, which can be accessed at this link on Navsource:
https://navsource.org/archives/08/pdf/0834331.pdf

Lots of color exterior and interior photos, and I have many more. I have the resin Clamagore kit which Yankee ModelWorks put out years ago. It has the PUFFS and the plug. I will be using an old Tom’s Models Guppy III sail, which has more accurate features. Right now, my Guppy IA Becuna needs only a dull coat to complete it.
Post Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:38 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all GUPPY (SS) fans  Reply with quote
Cool idea for a diorama!

All GUPPYs as converted had either the Portsmouth or EB sails, which were essentially the same in function but different in appearance. Starting in about 1960 or so, many fleet submarines received a substantially larger "plastic" (fiberglass) sail which moved the bridge to the top of the sail (which was drier in bad weather, hence the nickname of "northern sail" or "North Atlantic sail"). As far as I know, the GUPPY IIIs were the only type to uniformly get the plastic sails. Most of the GUPPYs and fleet snorkels in service after about 1960 had their Portsmouth/EB sails replaced with the plastic sails.

By the way, if you are interested in fleet boats, I would highly recommend John Alden's book The Fleet Submarine in the U.S. Navy.

Jacob
Post Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:26 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group