The Ship Model Forum

[quote] I thought all of you might be interested in my book: Operation Ivy Bells. [/quote]
I bought it a while back when it first became available.
I would indeed recommend the book to anyone interested, as it gives a real idea of details of the saturation diving operations off of [i]Halibut[/i].

Thanks for writing and you are most welcome participate with this group! We would appreciate any insights you feel you can give within the bounds of security.
Tom

I was the Officer in Charge (OIC) of the Test Operations Group (TOG)--the saturation dive team on [i]Halibut [/i]and [i]Seawolf[/i]. I do not mean to intrude on these interesting posts, but I thought all of you might be interested in my book: [i]Operation Ivy Bells[/i]. It is a semi-autobiographical first-person account of Ivy Bells seen through the eyes of Mac McDowell, the fictional OIC of TOG. Since most of you have an abiding interest in [i]USS Halibut[/i], I thought you might be interested in a personal, inside view of what happened. The book is available at [url]https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WDM5LCB/[/url] as an ebook and soft and hardbound. If you wish an autographed printed copy, drop me a line at my book website: [url]https://RobertWilliscroft.com[/url].

All Ocean Engineering-related systems were given a numbered system reference designator so they could be referred to openly without disclosing their purpose.

For example, we had several sophisticated sonars that would not have been normally installed on such an old boat that were paid for with Ocean Engineering funding. Whenever a work request or parts requisition was submitted, they were always referred to by their System number. MINSY had a dedicated supply group just for logistics support, so we wouldn't have to order parts through the regular Navy Supply system - which wouldn't have listed that equipment as carried onboard anyway.

What you're seeing is the working end of System 69. For those in the know, the shark is the punchline. (Everything has a reason.)

Even though the Halibut was decomm'ed 45 years ago in '76, she's still a sensitive subject. Standard declassification reviews are scheduled 25 years after the Originator creates the material. The last time I checked, CNO Special Projects-related reviews were exempt from declassification and subject to 75-year review from origination dates. I have little hope the programs will ever be openly discussed within my lifetime. And that's IF the review deems the information should be downgraded; meaning it could still remain classified, just at a lower level.

There's still information from WWII that remains classified.

CC

Ok, well what are they then?

Jacob

Thanks.

Nope. Those aren't suction or discharge ports.

Nice render! Are those white markings around the seawater suctions to make them more visible to divers?

Jacob

A little H-Boat render. Keeping with standard decorum, her modesty is protected below the waterline.

CC

[attachment=0]Inbound.jpg[/attachment]

Thanks for your comment. I think there is some confusion because the previous poster wrote "Seawolf" when he should have written "Halibut". As you note, Halibut was 350 feet length whereas Seawolf with the extension was considerably longer. My understanding is that the Projects insert for Seawolf was 52 feet in length.

I agree it was a huge loss to the Navy and the community when MINSY was shuttered. The loss of facilities and the accompanying expertise was tragic to say the least. I was in Groton when the New London Submarine base dodged a bullet from BRAC. It was on the closing list, but a concerted community effort, including local [u]political support[/u], saved the day.

[quote="Peter O"]Tom, I took the liberty of modifying your photo of the two hulls. I found that if I positioned them stern to stern, the hulls matched pretty well for much of their lengths, up to the small gap in the limber holes (shown by the red line). I then stretched the forward part of the Seawolf kit so that the stems matched. The end result matches the Blue Ridge kit pretty well.

That doesn't help explain why there is the discrepancy though.

I have the Blue Ridge kit to build as the SSGN (which, oddly, Blue Ridge calls SSNG in the instructions).

Peter[/quote]

Despite what Wikipedia says, Seawolf (post-conversion) was 384' in length - slightly longer than my first (598 class) boat, and more than 30' longer than the "H-boat" --as she was affectionately called by her crew. When the H-boat was de-commed, many of her crew were transferred to other billets within the CNO SP's community. They had some great stories.

Someday, (caveat that with a very big IF) the Navy ever declassifies details of the Mare Island-modified projects boats, there will be more than enough red-faced internet "experts" eating crow to crew one of them. Without a doubt, the unsung heroes of the program were the hundreds of MINSY workers who designed, built, and maintained "their" one-of-a-kind platforms and associated systems. They never received any meaningful credit for their accomplishments, --but that was never what motivated them anyway. There are some equally interesting behind-the-scenes stories of their hard work and dedication that made the missions possible.

It's interesting to read recent articles questioning the decision of the BRAC that shuttered MINSY and decimated the adjacent town of Vallejo is being re-visited, since the USN is having a major crisis without enough drydock-capable shipyards to support timely fleet maintenance. (Bay area politics played a large part, as every major naval facility was removed, with thousands of high-paying jobs lost as a result.) Portsmouth, Pearl, and PSNS aren't even close in capability for what is required.

I've used black or dark gray decal sheet to make floods. I cut a strip the right width, then chop it into rectangles. Applying them is tedious, but Tamiya tape marked with the openings makes it easy to get them properly lined up.

If you have a decal printer, you could print them with approximations of the slot or hole patterns in the cover plates also.

Peter

Yeah, [i]Halibut [/i]is basically a modified [i]Skate[/i] class, with the section after the inserted missile hanger pretty much an unmodified [i]Skate[/i]. The forward floods were modified with the addition of the hanger section, and there are ballast tanks around the hanger section itself. She was going to be a "one off" modified [i]Skate[/i], with a totally new design for four single Regulus II missile hangers in what going to be called the [i]Permit [/i]SSGN class. Polaris development was accelerated and the Regulus and Regulus II programs were terminated with the [i]Permits[/i] becoming [i]Thresher[/i] class SSNs.

Of course [i]Halibut[/i] was then modified and repurposed as a one off Special Projects boat.

Let me know if you need any measurements or better photos of the Pitroad kit floods. At one point, I was thinking of taking Plastruct STFS-4 finalize styrene square tubing and working it into hole drilled in the hull. Then putty around the tubing to fair it in. But, even the smallest version of the square tubing is probably too big in scale. Plus that would be a lot of fine detail work!

Thanks for the photos Tom! The aft MBT flood holes seem to broadly correspond to the Skate flood holes, so I think I'll base my flood hole pattern on the Pitroad kit. I'm going to assume the MSW and ASW ports are the same as the Skate.

I'm not sure how I'll accomplish drilling or scribing flood holes. I could 3D print a template that would allow me to use a dremel to excavate the holes or scribe them. If/when I get around to it, I'll definitely document my method and post any useful templates.

Jacob

Interesting work in "cutting" the hull and matching them up. I think you mean "Halibut", not "Seawolf" in your explanation.

I have both model kits and placed side by side, the Blue Ridge is noticeably larger. The older Pitroad kit is almost exactly 12 inches in length, which in 1/350 scale would scale to a submarine 350 feet long. That is indeed Halibut's length. The Blue Ridge kit comes out to 361 feet in length in 1/350.

Now, the Blue Ridge kit is a whole lot more versatile than the old Pitroad, and has far more options and topside detail. And, I really like the Blue Ridge submarine kits very much! But, I am puzzled, since every other Blue Ridge submarine kit I own has MBT flood ports on the bottom, as to why they were omitted from this kit.

A submarine without MBT flood ports is...a surface ship.

Tom, I took the liberty of modifying your photo of the two hulls. I found that if I positioned them stern to stern, the hulls matched pretty well for much of their lengths, up to the small gap in the limber holes (shown by the red line). I then stretched the forward part of the Seawolf kit so that the stems matched. The end result matches the Blue Ridge kit pretty well.

That doesn't help explain why there is the discrepancy though.

I have the Blue Ridge kit to build as the SSGN (which, oddly, Blue Ridge calls SSNG in the instructions).

Peter

The old Pitroad/Torpedo resin Halibut kit has the MBT vents along the bottom. As far as I can tell, they line up with the MBT (Main Ballast Tanks) in the interior cross section diagrams. I am not sure how you would cut these oblong indentations into the existing Blue Ridge resin kit; if you have any ideas, I would love to hear them. See attached photo for MBT vent positions. The Pitroad kit has no other markings, such as condenser inlet and outlets, etc.

The other issue to deal with in placing the vents is the difference in size of the two (reportedly) 1/350 scale Halibut models. See the side by side comparison photo. I am sorry to say that the older Seawolf kit scales out just about right for the reported 350 foot length as opposed to the Blue Ridge kit. You would have to adjust the positions slightly for the Blue Ridge kit accordingly. I can scale out the positions for you on the two kits, if that helps.

I'm working on the Blue Ridge [i]Halibut[/i] kit, and they unfortunately there is very little detail below the waterline. Does anyone know how the flood holes and other outboard details were arranged? The only source I have is the Jim Christley drawing in Friedman's [i]U.S. Submarines since 1945[/i]. I think I can make a reasonable stab at the MSW and ASW seachest locations based on drawings I have of the Skate, but I would have to totally guess on the flood holes.

Jacob

First, Jacob is correct about the colors. Some years back, I was in contact with Dr. Roger Dunham, who wrote "Spy Boat", a book about the Halibut mission to find the K-129. I ended up making Halibut models for the 2002 Halibut crew reunion, using the then available Pitroad resin Halibut kits (One SSGN and one as the Special Projects version, scratch building several parts. I had information on the submarine from then that I passed along to Blue Ridge, which along with other research on their part, resulted in their superb model of Halibut.

I have not read the Dean book, but I did research work with Michael White & Norman Polmar on the Azorian book, as well as Micheal White's Azorian documentary film (still available). I can tell you that Michael White spent an enormous amount of time and money chasing down research from first hand sources. Initially, mission participants were reluctant to speak with him, but he managed one time to convey that he wanted to tell the [u]real[/u] story (not helping was that the book Red Star Rogue had come out around this time, which presented a classic Conspiracy Theory book about the mission).

Michael who worked on major films in the 1980's, also has an artistic genius for producing (along with his colleague, Markus Cermak) superb CGI renderings of the operation. Pictures online (such as this: [url]http://maritime-executive.com/media/images/article/Photos/Miscellaneous/Original/Glomar%20Explorer%20Moon%20Pool-update2.jpg[/url]) are stills from his CGI. He was also kind enough to share with me during the research period large scale drawings of the [i]Glomar Explorer[/i], several engineering drawings of the CV, the HMB barge and the (from Russian archives) Russian Golf I and II classes, as well as B&W video taken from the CV and [i]Glomar Explorer[/i], interview transcripts, raw film interviews etc. over the course of the 3 year period we worked on the documentary. The documentary film trailer is here : [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h6rGrzD2VY[/url]. The documentary film DVD is still available from Amazon.

While I appreciate the comments by Jacob on the Polmar/White Azorian book and the original research done, additional details have come out since then. In my opinion the very best source is now the first hand account of the mission by former CIA engineer Dr. David H. Sharp. He was in on the planning, the engineering, and was one of the technical directors on board the [i]Glomar Explorer[/i] during the mission. He gives a blow by blow account of the details. Initially the CIA denied him the clearance to publish any parts of the book, but at least in part due to the Azorian documentary film led to their relenting. The book, [i]"The CIA's Greatest Covert Operation: Inside the Daring Mission to Recover a Nuclear-Armed Soviet Sub"[/i] is the best account you will find. Recently, it was opted by Ridley Scott's company for film treatment: [url]http://deadline.com/2017/08/cia-project-azorian-soviet-nuclear-submarine-movie-scott-free-new-sparta-1202153651/[/url]

Full disclosure: For reasons I won't go into further, I I am still in weekly email contact with both Michael White and David Sharp. I have been very privileged to work with Michael and get to know people like Dave, who were part of this incredible operation. It's been a long, incredible journey since I was a college student watching from afar the building of Howard Hughes' strange looking ship, [i]Glomar Explorer[/i] in Chester, Pa.

[quote="Devin"]I'm currently reading Josh Dean's "The Taking of K-129: How the CIA Used Howard Hughes to Steal a Russian Sub in the Most Daring Covert Operation in History" and he mentions that the Halibut wore a "black and gray camouflage scheme". Does anyone have any ideas on what that actually looked like?[/quote]

Short answer: the [i]Halibut[/i] was all-black at that time. When she was an SSGN, she had black on the horizontal surfaces and grey on the vertical surfaces, but she was painted all black in the mid-60s when she became an ocean engineering boat. I think the Skates (with which [i]Halibut[/i] shared many similarities) were painted all-black at Mare Island about this same time.

Rant: That book angers me. It's written by an author who doesn't know what he's talking about. He's a writer for Popular Science and GQ, not a naval historian. Polmar and White's [i]Project Azorian[/i] is the superior book on the subject and Josh Dean admits in the acknowledgements that most of the technical stuff was taken from that book. Admittedly it seems like he interviewed a lot of people not included in [i]Project Azorian[/i], but this book didn't need to be written, and it wasn't written well.

Jacob

I'm currently reading Josh Dean's "The Taking of K-129: How the CIA Used Howard Hughes to Steal a Russian Sub in the Most Daring Covert Operation in History" and he mentions that the Halibut wore a "black and gray camouflage scheme". Does anyone have any ideas on what that actually looked like?

Hello

Some news about skegs for the Blue Ridge model's kit ?

Pierre