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Topic review - 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie,
Well, I certainly don't intend to make any more work for either of us, but this is one of the problems with modeling items that tend to not have a great deal of reference photos or plans of minute details to rely upon. I think your boat will do fine as it currently exists - your detailing has certainly improved what you began with from the basic kit part.

Hank
Post Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:07 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hi there Hank, Meister Baumann, Tom, Marijin and all,

Thanks very much for your feedback and your interest, really much appreciated.

BB62vet wrote:
I noticed that you have added frames on either side of the inside of the hull - this would be consistent with the boat as shown in your photo #1015, but only partially exposed.
My guess is that the framing was covered by the 1950s, but that's only a guess.

Honestly, I was not able to clarify this subject. It was imposible to find any clear picture of the inside of the inboard details of the whale boat model I was reproducing, and as only source I followed the model of this whale boat:
Attachment:
(1025).jpg
(1025).jpg [ 56.72 KiB | Viewed 338 times ]

...along with the sketches of Al Ross in his AOTS The Sullivans --very clear things, on the other hand-- and both seemed to describe the same thing, i.e., frames. Your reasoning sounds consistent, and you are probably right. Too bad, because at this stage of the construction to go back to the beginning, with the stern complete, and everything that should be deleted would be no good. I know myself and my fat fingers too well at this stage of my life.

On the other hand, the second picture that you uploaded to the thread has allowed to me to realize that I had omitted the hooks and reinforcements that were used to lift the whaler out of the drink. I have added the elements accordingly, and also some other things that I had not done yet:

Attachment:
(1026).jpg
(1026).jpg [ 108.51 KiB | Viewed 338 times ]

With this, there is more detail, and again at no cost in work or time.
Fliger747 wrote:
You might want to check the inclination of the shaft as it is probably not parallel to the keel bottom but inclined as often were the motor assemblies.

Yes, I have noticed that as well. This piece moved during the process, only a fraction of mm., but it did, and was enough to be counted as a mistake. It was the first piece that I set in place in its moment, and it moved probably because of the slit in the hull that it had in the area for the corresponding Revell piece, and that I did not consider necessary to fill. Actually, the skeg broke during the last part of the process, and I had to make a new one, and it was not easy, as it has a curious shape, and is so tiny. As a solution, I will attach the screw with some angle, and as this section of the boat will be inboard-orientated, and behind the davit, I think this obvious mistake will be not noticed.
Fliger747 wrote:
I used to run a 26' MWB at one time, as I believe did Hank, but I never paid much attention to the details out of water (half century ago)

My case too, Tom. We had one of these thing on board our ship (39 years ago !!!!), and as it was always hanging from her davits and was rarely used, I had little opportunity (well, and interest) to get inside.
Fliger747 wrote:
Just curious as to how you intend to suspend this boat from the davits.

I don´t know myself either, but most surely I will use the plates that are already in place (made with melted plastic, marked with blue arrows), with a sketch of lifting eye, and a block attached to it, to be itself attached to the second block in the top of the davit with sections of stretched sprue. I will try this, but maybe will I have to simplify and omit the lifting eye, as these pieces are very tiny.

Meister Baumann, the Fletchers in the Spanish Navy had no canopy, so it will not be necessary, but your tip is excellent. I have been considering your method for a long time to make the blast bags, using scraps of stretched sprue to make the wrinks covered with white glue. I think it can work wonderfully, and guarantee that they are not similar to each other.

So that´s all for now. Thanks again for your interest, and very best regards from this side of the seas,

Willie.
Post Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
If you need to make the sprayhood like the one in the last shown image

you can do so by making a wire frame and creating the ' hollowed out' canvas using white glue

these are a couple of my 1/350 boats I made back in 2010 for my 1899 Bouvet project

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/sh ... index.html

My camera has improved in the meantime! :big_grin: :wave_1:

Image

Image

Image

Image
Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Great job on the boat Willie! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:
Some complicated shapes in there...
Post Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie,
Great job on this build! So inspiring to for me to take extra time and energy to do the same on my up coming project.

Cheers,
Todd
Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:53 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie:

Excellent fairing of the shaft, keg and rudder assembly. You might want to check the inclination of the shaft as it is probably not parallel to the keel bottom but inclined as often were the motor assemblies. I used to run a 26' MWB at one time, as I believe did Hank, but I never paid much attention to the details out of water (half century ago). I am glad you were able to make a nice work out of the kit boat hull. With our 3D printing program, Hank and I had much teeth gnashing to create an accurate smothed hull. By contrast the curved canopy were quite easy. Yes I have smashed either rudder or tiny prop a number of times on these small craft!

Just curious as to how you intend to suspend this boat from the davits, something i haven't yet done for Whitehurst. Fortunately wartime she only carried one boat.

Best regards fro Costa Rica! Tom
Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Very lovely wee boat !

bravo - JB
Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:26 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie,

Nice work on the 26' MWB!! I noticed that you have added frames on either side of the inside of the hull - this would be consistent with the boat as shown in your photo #1015, but only partially exposed. I can't explain this as the same boats in our navy had the framing covered, at least as far as I can tell by a photo of our 26' MWB on NEW JERSEY, the photo taken during her rebuild in Philadelphia in 1967-68 -
Attachment:
BB-62 MWB 1967_1.jpg
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Here is basically the same type of boat shown in 1943, belonging to CV-10 -
Attachment:
CV-10 MWB 1943_1.jpg
CV-10 MWB 1943_1.jpg [ 193.03 KiB | Viewed 483 times ]

My guess is that the framing was covered by the 1950s, but that's only a guess. I know STODDARD's 26' MWB was identical to the one on NEW JERSEY and both those boats no longer had exposed hull framing. It could also be that there was no consistent std. for how these boats were refurbished when they were brought out of reserve fleet storage.

I'm only pointing this out in order for you to have some pictorial reference to other similar boats. Since McGOWEN was transferred from the USN in the mid-60s my guess is that her boat may also have had her interior hull framing at least partially covered by that time. I searched thru the few photo I have of STODDARD's one wooden 26' MWB but they don't show the interior of the hull.

Your details, as usual, are over the top - very well done!! :thumbs_up_1:

Hank
Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:30 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
I don't want to glue the rudder and the screw yet to avoid potential damages with the masking tape when painting. As for now the thing is like this at the moment:
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(1023).jpg
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I hope you like it, and very best regards from this side of the Atlantic,

Willie.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:45 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hi there Tom, Hank and all.

Hank, my pleasure that after all the help I have always had from you I have been able of being of some help for you too.

Fliger747 wrote:
For Whitehurst I ended up making the mast in three sections where it penetrated the decks and the hollow sections aligned by the interior piano wire. Part of that solution was dictated by the vagaries of 3D printing as opposed to styrene construction. The pole masts of the WWII DE's were tapered at both ends as guy wires were an important part of the support. This was an advantage for 3D technique in that case.

Tom, this solution sounds really interesting. I would naver had thought of a mst in sections. It means that there are not big problems, but great solutions.

As I am bogged at the moment with the wiring on my mast, I have devoted some attention to the motor whaleboat. Hank sent me some months ago one of the redundant whaleboats of his 1/144 WWII Revell Fletcher. This model was actually one of the two described in AOTS The destroyer THE SULLIVANS, by Al Ross, pag. 117, the one without canopy, that is apparently the one that the sister ship Alcalá Galiano had onboard. This one :
Attachment:
(1011).jpg
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Revell's whaler is very basic, really crude, but the general lines are aceptable.
Attachment:
(1012).jpg
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Firstable I had to delete the motor canopy and open the deck to make room for the operator, and then to make the motor itself.
This whaleboat motor had a canopy that was not simmetrical, this one:
Attachment:
(1013).JPG
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Attachment:
(1014).JPG
(1014).JPG [ 39.42 KiB | Viewed 495 times ]

Once I had the information the canopy was no problem at all, as I had to use only some Evergreen scraps. For the detailing I could find one single picture, this one:
Attachment:
(1015).JPG
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So I had to adapt the details, to make this:
Attachment:
(1016).jpg
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The next step was make the rear section with the shaft and the supports for the rudder to form a curved line. I made this with three elements welded together with Revell glue (very thick) and then filed and sanded to the right proportions, and then more sanding to put the adition level to the rest of the keel.
Attachment:
(1017).jpg
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After this I had to make a screw, simply a section of rod filed and sanded.
Attachment:
(1018).jpg
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Then I added frames, hatches and some other small stuff, to give the thing some more detailing. Very easy.
Attachment:
(1019).jpg
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Attachment:
(1020).jpg
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:36 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie,

Your mast attachment seems to work well! One item I noticed on my purchased pilot house was that the after extension of the pilot house overhead that goes around the center mast pole is a filled in framework - my purchased pilot house was not correct in this instance so this is one more item to correct on my 3D designed bridge/pilot house as STODDARD had a filled in extension area. Just one of the little additional variances that crop up depending on the particular ship you happen to be modeling. The cable runs that extend along the back side of the mast pole will indeed need to be addressed - I'm glad you mentioned this as it is just another item to be designed and printed or in your case created and made from various styrene pieces. The picture you sent me of this area of the mast, etc. is priceless -
Attachment:
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This sort of information never appears in any plans, so photos are the next best way to know what needs to be created!

Keep up your fine work!!

Hank
Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 3:29 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie:

Your solution works, one must use ingenuity in these instances. For Whitehurst I ended up making the mast in three sections where it penetrated the decks and the hollow sections aligned by the interior piano wire. Part of that solution was dictated by the vagaries of 3D printing as opposed to styrene construction. The pole masts of the WWII DE's were tapered at both ends as guy wires were an important part of the support. This was an advantage for 3D technique in that case.

Yes, those cable runs on your post war Fletchers are a challenge but as with all the other details add a lot of veracity. The progress continues! Adding the mast makes handling the model and working on other items rather a delicate matter.

Best regards: Tom
Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:09 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hi there Meister Baumann and all,

JIM BAUMANN wrote:
steady and good quality progress again--
however- I was very much taken and impressed with your fine binoculars!
BRAVO !! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

Why, thanks very much for your kind remark. I could not find any picture of them on board our Fletchers, but they were pretty common kit in many other units, so I can assume they were standard on board high seas ships --and in any case they do not harm the model, and were such a pleasure to build.

The attaching of the main mast to the structure was a kind of headache.

This is what had to be done:
Attachment:
(1007).JPG
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My problem is that this mast is not placed by the structure, but inside it. All the details but one are very easy to do. The one is the wiring trunk that goes round the structure up the mast. To replicate this I found two options: (1) to build the mast, set it in place and add the wire with the mast already in place (way too complicated, with the rest of the mast complete, with so many things in the middle and the ship herself lying on her sides to allow the process) or (2) to attach the structure to the mast, instead of the mast to the structure, so that I can handle the mast in every direction to add the wiring. I preferred to choose the second option.

I built the missing piece of deck aft of the bridge house using a piece of 0.75 mm. scrap of styrene:
Attachment:
(1008).jpg
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After this I added a section of 1.5 mm. angle at the rear end of the bridge, exactly 0.75 mm. below the deck level, to secure an even level to the addition. I attached then the new structure to the mast, reinforcing the seams with two sections of tubing, as the case luckily was in the Fletchers as well. The 1.5 mm. angle allowed a firm point to keep the usual 5º rake of the mast:
Attachment:
(1009).jpg
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Once in place, and even with only a dry fit, the seam is almost invisible, as the case was in the real structure too. The angle is of course completely invisible.
Attachment:
(1010).jpg
(1010).jpg [ 203.12 KiB | Viewed 395 times ]

With this, I can finish the bridge, as well as completing the mast and attaching it to the bridge without further problem. The solution is a bit weird, but I think it works.

Very best regards and nice going from this side of the oceans,

Willie.
Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:44 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Good day Willie !

steady and good quality progress again--
however-

I was very much taken and impressed with your fine binoculars!

BRAVO !! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

JIM B :wave_1:
Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hi there Hank, Mr. davis and all,

Thanks very much for these excellent posts. Things reg. masts are way clearer now, after Hank´s experiences and Mr. Davis´s usual amount of knowledge in such fields.

BB62vet wrote:
Rick - (and not to steal Willie's thread!!) I appreciate your more comprehensive and historical comments regarding the FLETCHER class tripod mast development.

Hank, I do not consider this my thread. Anybody is welcome to post here, as I consider our fora a place to publish advances, receive advise about any mistakes or corrections to do, and above anything else, to share. Otherwise where is the fun.

After the very basic work on the main cross bars, I have done something else in the rest of the bars, using 1.00, 0.75 and 0.50 mm. Evergreen rod. As hank points, there are many differences among the different units, but for once I have got some excellent pics of USS McGowan mast, so the work was easy this time.
Attachment:
(1006).jpg
(1006).jpg [ 349.81 KiB | Viewed 492 times ]

Now I have to solve the problem of how to attach the main leg to the rear of the bridge, and then I will proceed inmediately to the fine detailing. I have many pictures of this mast, so I hope it will not be complicated.

In the meanwhile, very best regards from the North Atlantic shores,

Willie.
Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Rick E Davis wrote:
In Part -
About half a dozen FLETCHER's got a revised tripod foremast, as seen on USS CASSIN YOUNG, designed for the new low frequency radars which reached service in the late 1950's. (the new low frequency radars were widely installed on FRAM and new construction) I call them "Step Masts" because the platform for the new radar was lowered for the increased weight. One of the destroyers planned to get the new radar and had the "Step Foremast" installed, in the end didn't get the radar, and she carried the SPS-6C radar and antenna on the new mast.

Rick - (and not to steal Willie's thread!!) I appreciate your more comprehensive and historical comments regarding the FLETCHER class tripod mast development.
Rick E Davis wrote:
In Part -
However, for interest of frequency diversity, one or of four destroyers was directed to have a lower frequency radar installed (like SC-5, SR, or newer) and didn't require a tripod foremast. When the FLETCHER's were first upgraded after recommissioning in a near WWII configuration, the tripod foremast was often installed, but older SC radars and their antenna were installed back on the tripod mast. This was because demand for SPS-6, then SPS-6C, radars and antennas exceeded production with a sudden demand for 82 FLETCHER class destroyers being added to the fleet. Eventually, most units with tripods got SPS-6C radars installed. The planned one out of four plan for a lower frequency radar on all destroyers, didn't pan out in practice, with more units getting the SPS-6C radar than was planned and development of a new radar with lower frequency AND could be installed on destroyers was protracted.

And this statement is also valid as we had several FLETCHER's in our DesDiv 212 in San Diego which fit the above criteria even into the mid-late 1960s. I think it would be quite interesting if someone were to publish an illustrated, technical book(let) on the post-war FLETCHER class DD's including plans and details for all the various weapons, equipment, and configuration differences that were incorporated into these ships.

It IS New Years Day and we do get a wish, right????? :doh_1:

Hank
Post Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hank,

A correction of sorts about Tripod Masts on FLETCHER's (and SUMNER and GEARING's). The tripod mast was developed for the SPS-6 radar antenna after a few units had a SPS-6B antenna installed on a pole foremast. The pole foremasts (seen on early DDE's, both FLETCHER's and GEARING's) utilized heavy stays to keep the mast and antenna from falling over from the weight. To keep weight low as possible, aluminum was selected for making the Tripod Foremast. The Tripod Foremast was given a ShipAlt number and was specifically called out for use on the recommissioned FLETCHER's after being introduced on SUMNER's and GEARING's before the Korean War. However, for interest of frequency diversity, one or of four destroyers was directed to have a lower frequency radar installed (like SC-5, SR, or newer) and didn't require a tripod foremast. When the FLETCHER's were first upgraded after recommissioning in a near WWII configuration, the tripod foremast was often installed, but older SC radars and their antenna were installed back on the tripod mast. This was because demand for SPS-6, then SPS-6C, radars and antennas exceeded production with a sudden demand for 82 FLETCHER class destroyers being added to the fleet. Eventually, most units with tripods got SPS-6C radars installed. The planned one out of four plan for a lower frequency radar on all destroyers, didn't pan out in practice, with more units getting the SPS-6C radar than was planned and development of a new radar with lower frequency AND could be installed on destroyers was protracted.

So in fact the design and build of the tripod foremast were the same across the FLETCHER-SUMNER-GEARING destroyer fleet. However, things like antenna runs and new equipment (or different equipment) and waveguide runs being installed introduced different or additional platforms/brackets. Also, after a few years of use, the problem of dissimilar metals (steel ship and aluminum mast) causing corrosion became apparent after at least TWO destroyers experienced main legs of the tripod mast breaking off at the base at sea!! So mods were done to ensure that grounding straps had "backup" paths and beefed up base. For modeling purposes, these are invisible.

About half a dozen FLETCHER's got a revised tripod foremast, as seen on USS CASSIN YOUNG, designed for the new low frequency radars which reached service in the late 1950's. (the new low frequency radars were widely installed on FRAM and new construction) I call them "Step Masts" because the platform for the new radar was lowered for the increased weight. One of the destroyers planned to get the new radar and had the "Step Foremast" installed, in the end didn't get the radar, and she carried the SPS-6C radar and antenna on the new mast.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 5:00 pm
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Willie,

Your tripod mast looks excellent! Good work, as usual! The cross members are a bit tricky to get correct, in spite of being rather simple tubes. Once again, these were not a std. design as there are a couple variations of the basic mast. CASSIN YOUNG and THE SULLIVANS do not have identical masts - each varies somewhat in the basic structure. I think this was due to the type of RADAR unit that was intended to be installed and also (again!) shipyard preference in final engineering/design.

Nice to see your recent progress!!

Hank
Post Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 8:31 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hi all friend modelers again.

Next step was the main mast again, to build the cross bars, so that I can go on with the rest of structures and fine detailing.

This is the main thing to build.
Attachment:
(1003).JPG
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As it can be seen, the cross bars are not uniform at all, and as the main mast was made with 3.2 mm. tube and 2.00 mm. rod, I found a compromise with cross bars in 1.6 and 1.2 mm. rods.

With so long elements I had to make a kind of scaffolding first, setting the mast in the upward position and adding strips all around, so that the three legs did not move at all. In the heat of the operation I forgot to make a picture of the whole scaffolding. This one was made when the strips were removed in the most part, but it gives an idea of the otherwise very simple process.
Attachment:
(1004).jpg
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With all the strips gone, the glue markings were deleted with fine sandpaper, and there are no marks at all.

The mast looks now really good. The cuts in the bars had to be very precise, following the rake of the three legs. It took some time and some rod sections wasted, but it was done in due time with no further problems.
Attachment:
(1005).jpg
(1005).jpg [ 237.21 KiB | Viewed 608 times ]

Nice going and best wishes from across the North Atlantic,

Willie.
Post Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 6:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: 1/144 Jorge Juan (ex USS McGowan)  Reply with quote
Hi there Hank, Tom and all,

Thanks very much for your remarks. My pleasure to share in this forum with you guys.

Fliger747 wrote:
I do notice that Rick's above photo of the bridge has the early frames sloping backwards. I can see where the forward sweeping frames allows a better view of what is going on close aboard.

Good eye. I had noticed the canvas canopy, but not the backwards inlination of the frames.
Fliger747 wrote:
Thanks Willie and all for an educational project and jut another Fletcher, of which there were so many. Just how many destroyers have ever made a night torpedo run agains an enemy Battleship!

Always my pleasure, Tom, but I am afraid it is you folks who instruct me with the large amount of info you have always provided me with.
Fliger747 wrote:
Just how many destroyers have ever made a night torpedo run agains an enemy Battleship!

Not many, definitely.

And as I was not sure what to do next, I decided to finish the binoculars in the bridge wings. This is what I already had in store:
Attachment:
(952).jpg
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The following was just to add the yokes, and a strut base with a tube ring.
Attachment:
(998).jpg
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And then to (more or less) replicate the fixing of the set to the bulkhead, that I made with small sections of 2.00 mm. Evergreen angles:
Attachment:
(999).jpg
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With this, the binoculars have a revolving movement at no price in effort.
Attachment:
(1000).jpg
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My fat fingers have limits, these pieces are very small, and I had to oversize some of them, but once with everything in position, the overall effect is more acceptable:
Attachment:
(1001).jpg
(1001).jpg [ 231.52 KiB | Viewed 638 times ]

And @Tracy: reg. what we were talking about yesterday, here is a further finding that allows to confirm that what I did in the bridge is at least 50% acceptable. This time I was lucky, and in the same picture I can see how to link the canopy elements together. Wonderful.
Attachment:
(1002).jpg
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Nice going to all of you from across the pond,

Willie.
Post Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:48 pm

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