The Ship Model Forum

And that yellowing in the HMS Caroline sample [i]can[/i] be reversed by "bleaching" with a UV light source, and [i]then[/i] can be more accurately be color-matched (colour-matched).

Hello,

Lets consider drying oil based paint. You place it when wet and the first thing that happens is that the turpentine evaporates into the air along with some of the light oils giving the horrible smell of drying oil based paint. The paint is now much more stable and has a film. For black paint it is the dryers and for grey and white paint the driers and the lead carbonate that cause a catalytic reaction in the linseed oil causing cross linkages to form. This results in 24 to 72 hours in the final stabilized dry paint. Only the paint is actually anything but stable; it is still reacting. The catalysts are still there, still causing cross linking, only at a slower rate. Ammonia from cleaners causes yellowing. Sulphur Dioxide from coal and oil burning causes the lead to go black. Oxygen from the air also reacts with the oils causing yellowing. This is countered by UV from the sun that bleaches out the yellow. But as soon as covered by a layer of opaque paint, the yellow reforms.

So the photo micrograph of the layers in HMS Caroline's paint is delightful in its own right but less than helpful in determining paint colours. Also one of the Lessons of Jutland was that RN ships where painted to dark a grey. If you look at the paint layers the start is dark grey and then goes to two differing light greys. Just how do you decide the time line in paint layers? Based on the 'Lesson', it makes sense that the lighter greys are post Jutland. Notice as well that the white paint used under Admiralty order in tropical waters has yellowed, as would be expected. So if the white is yellowed, the greys must also be colour altered.

Cheers,
George

[quote="J Spencer"]

Interestingly, the slideshow presents a remarkably close match for A.P. 507C and A.P.507A.[/quote]

The potential for confusion here is considerable. Please can you clarify which slides you believe show 507C and 507A.

The WWII USN blue ship paints were mixes of lampblack, ultramarine blue, and titanium white. Even following the propotions very carefully I had a very difficult time getting my samples to resemble the official chips which were matched to the 1929 edition of the "Munsell Book of Color".

I would be fascinated to see some of the WWI artifacts at the Portsmouth (UK) museum to see if there are any with traces of Jutland-era paint in order to see how uniform the colors are.

The National Maritime Museum website has several of the maritime painter Cull's ship models made "from life" in the pre-WWI period. The NMM website displays his battleship "Hindustan" and battlecruiser "Queen Mary". The former is in the pre-war medium gray and the latter in the pre-war very dark gray.

Well, of course, the ships would appear to be of uniform in color in monochrome, glass plate photographs. If I were to convert my images of CVN TRUMAN to monochrome, I am sure the parti-colored carrier would appear to be a uniform gray. It's only in color images that we can see subtle differences in the chroma. Apparently, there was a scholarly article written about the CAROLINE paint discoveries, unfortunately it was removed from the web. On the C museum site, there are a couple videos. In one the captain involved with her restoration remarks that he was surprised to see her Jutland color had blue in it, which doesn't jibe with the greenish published image. Apparently, there is some confusion on this matter. Since they found the "Jutland color" under layers of paint, see more on this on the C Museum site, they did not discover it in the open, they may be onto something.

More on how the conservators discovered CAROLINE's 1916 gray:

http://www.nmrn.org.uk/explore/hms-caroline/project-updates

Hi J Spencer,

Paint was much simpler in 1914, just carbon for black and for white, lead carbonate and zinc oxide. Hard to mess this up when the ingredients are issued for use. So I concur that modern paints and manufactured paints with complex mixtures allow for many errors. I do not agree that the RN had difficulty in mixing paint. Just look at the photographs and ships are in constant tone and ships in harbour settings all look alike.

Having visited HMS Caroline you can visually see what parts of the ship are original, what was modified during WW1 and what was modified after. It is unfortunate that the author of the slide show was not more specific. Paint chips from near the bridge does allow for variability. It should also be realized that HMS Caroline original bridge structure was significantly rebuilt during her refit of 1917-1918. From my photos ~100 taken during my visit I would say that the Captains head and chart room are all that was original. Are the paint chip representative - maybe.

Also there is an error. As HMS Caroline was painted using white lead or lead carbonate in the paint this is both toxic and dangerous for the environment. White lead has a PEL/TLV (mg/mj) of 0.05 which is very toxic. (PEL = Permissible Exposure Limit TLV = Threshold Limit Value) as per the MSDS sheet.

So I'm going to comply with Admiralty orders and that would have her in Pattern 507B per CIO 317 6/4/1915 (what I called AFO 19.11.14 Grey 1:20 back on page 1 of this thread).

Cheers,
George

George, having gone through the same process you are using for WWII USN paints back in the 1980s, I understand your zeal, but it is a useless passion. (1) The quest to find exact duplicates of long-gone ingredients is a chimera. You can approximate the ingredients for a educated guess, but I would never say the results are definitive. (2) The sheer randomness of the way in which these ingredients were mixed by the users defies trying to define exact specifications. The best we can do is approximate using available artifacts, such as the BARHAM section, or dockyard models, or paintings. A few years ago the Luftwaffe buffs were puzzling over a variety of late-war colors found on preserved aircraft. A German researcher discovered the varieties were due to several paint manufacturers going completely off spec when mixing the paints. Now, if industrialized paint production results in discordant swatches, imagine what happens when paints are mixed by sailors who, most decidedly, are not using precision measures. Belief in uniform colors is a sort of obsession of modelers just like wargamers like to believe every battalion in an army matched its table of organization and equipment.

If the slideshow on the HMS CAROLINE story is correct, that the color in which she was painted in 1916 was a greenish-gray (which fits the "French Gray" description by the WWI author to a T for some types of the color), this confounds the documents. I would like to see the paint chips, and I would like to see the reasoning by which the conservators came to the conclusion this paint was her 1916 color. Interestingly, the slideshow presents a remarkably close match for A.P. 507C and A.P.507A.

HMS CAROLINE's 38 shades of gray, see the slideshow for Jutland:

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2015/may/29/150528-hms-caroline

and a very interesting article, especially for autumn 1914:

http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol19/tnm_19_171-192.pdf

George,

[i]Yes, the dockyard maties would indeed make paint but what to do at anchor? [/i]> holystone the decks, all hands to coal or the ever popular, a run ashore to the pub.

Some more shots from that series and one from 3 years later attached one with & without flash. Also two photos I always send to people about the effect of flash. Same ship model at the Science Museum with & without flash.

One thing that intrigued me looking at yours was the fact that the turrets seem to be a different colour to the rest of the ship. A closer look and mine appear that way too.

I’ll leave it to Dick to start the inter war thread when he is ready. There are still a couple of AFOs which seem to be missing up to 1925.

Regards,

Michael

Hi Michael,

Remember, the time frame is 1901 to 1918. Labour is cheap and plentiful, there really are no large manufactures. Yes, the dockyard maties would indeed make paint but what to do at anchor?

I used a Canon digital camera with the ISO set to 6400. This gives typical indoor shots at 1/60 sec and F5.0. I have noticed that colour balance between between digital cameras from Nikon, Canon SLR's and Canon point and shoot vary for the same shot. But the blue reflected light from the model of Indomitable was indeed what you saw using the odd artificial light in the room. The flash gave a different colour as it used a fuller light spectrum. Time should not significantly affect colour at normal shooting conditions. Only under low light without a flash will the colour shift. That condition did not exist. The differences in colour between your camera and mine is simply additional proof that photos should not be used to determine colour no matter what the camera make or its settings.

The interwar material that you and Dick have dug out is really marvellous. Have you considered starting a new thread? Seams to be a shame to have it buried in here.

Cheers,
George

Well how about a different approach to WW1 RN greys. Instead of trying to recreate the colours, have they been there all the time but we didn’t recognise them? A decade or so back when I got interested in RN colours, two colours always intrigued me. BS381 introduced in 1930, a colour called Light Battleship Grey #31 and Dark Battleship Grey #32. Logically as the BS381 series were for government bodies, they should have been RN colours.

During the interwar years, we were led to believe that the dark grey should have been 507A and the light 507C. The problem being that the only reference point I had were the S&S Colour charts showing AP507A and AP507C (1920). Both were greys with a bluish tint and neither looked like 32 or 31 which were more “pure” greys. 32 looked to be too light for 507A and too dark for 507B. We now know that 507B was the colour in use in the interwar period as the RN’s darker grey and, from 1933, was referred to as “Dark Grey Paint, Home Fleet Shade”. Prior to that the only reference against the formula for 507B was “Home Stations”. It is not the S&S 507B.

Recently, I’ve been trawling through the Australian Navy’s and Australian National Archives and one thing that has become apparent is that in the 1920s, the RAN was buying ready mixed paint for use on smaller vessels. We know also that the RN was buying ready mixed paint too. My first thoughts were that the 381 colours must be the RN colours in use in 1930. A nice idea until the discovery of AFOs showing that blue grey paint was in use in 1930. However, looking at the records on the Paint Committee in WW2, they were talking during the war not only with paint companies about paint but colours with British Standards. So if they were talking to them for at least 5 years before the updated BS381C came into being in 1948, how long were the discussions before the 1930 issue? Were the two battleship greys actually those in use back in 1924/25? If so, they would still be the WW1 shades of grey.

So was BS381 31 Light Battleship Grey actually WW1 507C and 32 Dark Battleship Grey actually WW1 507B? 31 is now BS381C Light Grey and 32 is BS381C 632 Dark Admiralty Grey.

Most people building modern RN ships would know 632 as the RN’s deck and flight deck colour for many years. Few would know 631. If you want to know what a ship painted in that colour looks like, there are quite a few photos around. In 1955, the RAN dropped 507C as it standard grey and switched to 631 Light Grey. They used that colour until 1985 when Storm Grey, a darker version of Light Grey, came into use.

Some photos attached of RAN ships in Light Grey.

George, if you would like a sample of Light Grey, just let me know the address and I’ll send you one on some plastic for comparison to your mixed samples.

George,

I don’t think all paint was mixed on board. Naval bases might or might not have had premixed paint available but RAN records indicate the various Naval Dockyards mixed and held the paints for ships in their Naval Stores. Ready mixed paint isn’t a modern thing. The RAN was purchasing paint in the 1920s from manufacturers for smaller ships i.e. destroyers and below as they did not carry a Painter. At times they issued these to the larger ships too.

[color=#FF0000]Notice with the flash that you get a neutral grey from the reflected balanced light of the flash. >[/color] Actually, my photos were taken without the use of flash. Those were taken with a speed of 1/6th of a second with the Image Stabilisation System working its little heart out compared to your non flash one of 1/30th of a second. May be the longer exposure lets in more light and shows a truer colour.

The Hood ones were at 1/5th second but with the camera’s rubber hood right up against the glass to stop any reflections. Hood should in theory be in WW1 507B.

regards,

Michael

Hello JHS and Will1957,

Where to start.. always a question.

The comment on modern paint matching is very interesting. Modern navy's seam to focus on Operation Efficiency and Economic Efficiency. So paint is delivered premixed and used as is. This thread focuses on the time frame of about 1901 to 1918. This was the transition from the Victoria Era of black, white and buff to the first use of grey by the RN. While the colours may have changed, it took much longer to change the Victorian attitudes where strict unquestioning exact compliance to orders was the norm. But first lets look at supply. Paint was not delivered premixed. Instead the First Lieutenant instructed the Ships Painter who worked with his crew using an Admiralty issued balance to weigh out Admiralty issued materials to make the paint for the ship on the spot to an Admiralty issued formula resulting in 100 cwt of ships paint. Victorian era attitudes where that if the Lieutenant got this wrong, he would not advance. In this era an Admiral was court marshalled for continuing gun target practice rather than returning to harbour to paint ship. So rather than the current Operation Efficiency and Economic Efficiency it was Strict Compliance that got you promoted. If you look at the pictures of the ships in the 1910 to 1914 time period they are immaculate with perfect paint. By 1918 where Operational Efficiency was taking over, some of the destroyers could look shabby indeed. And even HMS Erin, a battleship had shameful paint.

There are numerous posts in this thread that draw serious contention to the use of photos, models and art as a basis for colour. But here is another example. These shots were taken by me in the Transport Museum, the same day, using the same camera. The first uses the 'natural light' in the room and the second uses a flash.

[attachment=1]GTM HMS Indomitable 1s.jpg[/attachment]

Notice the pronounced dark blue grey and also the odd greenish tint to the room.

[attachment=0]GTM HMS Indomitable 2s.jpg[/attachment]

Notice with the flash that you get a neutral grey from the reflected balanced light of the flash.

So where to start... That was my problem with RN WW1 grey. So using an analytical balance, I mixed as per Admiralty formula the greys. Of course after 100 years I could not get Admiralty issued materials so I used mainly artist supplies as they come in small quantities. (Lead Oxide is considered a toxin and the less you have, the less you need to correctly dispose of.) The art supply lead and zinc oxides where also very finely ground which I feel is suitable in that current model colours use very finely ground pigments and so the colour matching would be more valid. Also checking the MSDS sheets for the art supplied compounds they were 100% Lead Oxide and zinc oxide so they should be as close a match to Admiralty supplied material as is available in this time period.

Do I feel the colours are perfect - nope. But I do believe they are a lot better place to start than any where else.

Cheers,
George

[quote="will1957"]Good Afternoon Everyone,

I am very late to this discussion, but read this thread again after reading the AP507 thread on Steelnavy. Regarding JHS' post about artists and builders models, I think JHS has made a fair point about artist's paintings and builder's models even given artist's and builder's licence. What I would like to add is when I saw the model of HMS Indomitable at the old Museum of Transport in Glasgow, I was surprised at how blue it was - it was a dark grey with more than a hint of purple blue. At the time, I remembered having read that pre-WW1 and WW1 greys had no blue in them and this was a later development. The blueness of the dark grey it was painted (if that makes sense) came as a real surprise.

I did have a photograph of the model, but it's long lost on one of my now "dead" computers.

Best Wishes,

Will1957.[/quote]

Are you sure you are thinking of Indomitable? As a builder's model it should date circa 1908 and well before greys had blue in them. Attached a couple of shots of that Indomitable model and the immediate post WW1 model of the Hood they hold.

Good Afternoon Everyone,

I am very late to this discussion, but read this thread again after reading the AP507 thread on Steelnavy. Regarding JHS' post about artists and builders models, I think JHS has made a fair point about artist's paintings and builder's models even given artist's and builder's licence. What I would like to add is when I saw the model of HMS Indomitable at the old Museum of Transport in Glasgow, I was surprised at how blue it was - it was a dark grey with more than a hint of purple blue. At the time, I remembered having read that pre-WW1 and WW1 greys had no blue in them and this was a later development. The blueness of the dark grey it was painted (if that makes sense) came as a real surprise.

I did have a photograph of the model, but it's long lost on one of my now "dead" computers.

Best Wishes,

Will1957.

Frankly, the modelers' search for definitive colors is like a unicorn hunt. In the mid-1980's I asked the father of a friend of mine who made US federal specification paints how close he was able to come to the government swatches with his batches. He laughed. He then retailed the usual story: all depended on weather, humidity, the current store of ingredients, who was doing the preparation that day, etc, etc, etc. In sum, the final product resembled the government swatch, but he never was able to produce an exact match, and nobody ever expected to get an exact match from his company. I saw the CVN TRUMAN and her escorts at Norfolk VA in March 2011. These were in-service warships in port to resupply, not grungy reserve ships, not immaculate museum ships. The big carrier, a gigantic "canvas" for illustrating the pitfalls of assuming warships could be as ideal as a tiny model, looked like she had an advanced case of paint blight. Her flanks were a patchwork of varying mixes, such a variety of values and subtle variations in chroma you could not really assess which were the "on spec" color and which were renegades. The same went for her escorts, but the effect was not quite as pronounced because they did not have such colossal verticals.

The chances of getting on spec colors 100 years later are remote. There are clues, like the chunk of the side of the BARHAM preserved at the Imperial War Museum which was perforated by a German shell at Jutland, or a fragment of one of HAMPSHIRE's boats washed ashore after her sinking. My favored means to get an idea of the colors is to look at as many period watercolors and oil paintings as possible in museums (less satisfactory, online or in books)---and cross my fingers. An artist has the best possible eye for color. I hit the jackpot when I was reading a book by a person who was around the Rosyth ships in 1914-16. He described their color as "French gray", a keen sense for interior decoration to the rescue. To me this was worth stacks of specifications for long gone ingrediants no doubt randomly assembled by the users.

I find any claim to definitiveness by model paint manufacturers, producers of swatches for modelers, or idealists who think they can hit the bullseye by trying to replicate exact ingredients and proportions of paint produced under quite different conditions 100 years ago to be questionable.

P.S.

I stared at the planks of the HAMPSHIRE boat for about 30 minutes at the IWM in 1993, and my notes taken at the time, not having my MUNSELL BOOK OF COLOR at hand, were "medium gray with a hint of blue". Now, accounting for the immersion of the planks in sea water for who knows how long, and the age of the artifact, 83 years, I present this, again, with crossed fingers. Unfortunately, the BARHAM plate was reversed so that all I could see was the white interior color, but I would love to see the outboard side.

I forgot to mention the best source for approximating WWI RN ship finishes: the extraordinary collections of builders' models of warships in museums from Scotland to England. The colossal HMS QUEEN MARY in the National Maritime Museum should be a natural "go to" for any serious researcher. Museums also have ship models made by maritime artists in this period, certainly an excellent source. The difference between the dark gray of QM and the lighter gray of the massive BARHAM builder's model ought to set off alarm bells. There are reasonably good answers to the color question. Documents and official swatches are indicators, but they are not the Holy Grail.

For example, a careful look at the Charles Pears collection at the Imperial War Museum indicates that Rosyth, where he was during WWI, used a green anti-fouling paint on capital ships and lesser vessels.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/21401

Very quiet here lately. I visited Canberra recently to look through their copies of RN AFOs for anything of interest. They have them from 1910 > 1960. Unfortunately not a complete set with some being just parts of years and also entire years missing.

However, these should be of interest. 1825 of 1916 seems to be the AFO which names pattern 507C. Not admiralty pattern but simply pattern.

Now we just need the AFOs which brought in 507B etc as noted by Dittmar. Even better if 507A rated a mention in them somewhere.

Graham,

Sorry I missed the 1907 time period for your build. Dark grey 507 would be more appropriate or 3 parts black to 2 parts white.

George

Thanks George, the possibility of red-lead had crossed my mind as well.
I'll go with the 507B grey for my 1907 model then - it just seemed at odds with the given sequence/timing of the greys' use.

Cheers,

GrahamB