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Topic review - HMS Prince of Wales
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Thank you Richard, it's wonderful to read the results of your searches.
Post Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:57 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
For those with an interest in the colour of the lower hull of HMS Prince of Wales, I have consulted the Ships’ Covers for the KGV Class held by the NMM. A note states that MacArthur’s composition was designated to be used on the bottom of HMS Prince Wales. MacArthur’s anti fouling composition came in black or grey. The lower hull of HMS Prince of Wales is visible in photos of her in drydock after the Bismarck action and when sinking. These show that her lower hull was lighter than (the black of) her boot topping indicating that her bottom was grey.

The shades of grey (and red) anti fouling compositions used by the RN in WW2 varied according to the different manufacturers. Photos seem to show that MacArthur’s grey anti fouling might have been very slightly lighter than Home Fleet grey.
Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 11:02 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sutho wrote:
I am currently reading a copy of "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke one of the survivors from Prince of Wales from Bismarck right through to the sinking. He doesn't go into much detail of the colours in the camouflage but does make some interesting observations. In one part he stated British ships had a more blueish look to their grey than the German ships. He describes seeing the antifouling hull of Ark Royal bobbing out of the water looking almost brown.


Re Ark Royal, not the hull, just the forefoot as I read it:

(Page 7) “…heaving her bow right out of the sea so that the angular brown-painted forefoot jutted clear…..”

Brooke records the incident with Ark Royal as being two weeks into the war, so roughly mid September 1939. Her previous docking was July 1939 and the relevant D495 docking report tells us that at that time Ark Royal’s bottom was coated with Moravia paints, but this particular report does not tell us the colour of the paints used.

First on would have been two coats of protective. Moravia protective came in grey and red. Say the grey went on first and red second. We don’t know the hue of Moravia ‘red’ but my suspicion, based on the builder’s model of KGV, is that Moravia’s red protective was actually quite brown.

After that came the top coat, the anti-fouling. Moravia anti fouling came in grey or black. The bow area was one of the areas of the bottom subject to most wear from water friction, the forefoot perhaps particularly so. Say the anti fouling there was beginning to wear off and the top layer of protective was showing through…. that could account for what Brooke recalled when he wrote his book 43 years later.
Post Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:08 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I am currently reading a copy of "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke one of the survivors from Prince of Wales from Bismarck right through to the sinking. He doesn't go into much detail of the colours in the camouflage but does make some interesting observations. In one part he stated British ships had a more blueish look to their grey than the German ships. He describes seeing the antifouling hull of Ark Royal bobbing out of the water looking almost brown.

One interesting point was that Bismarck damage to the ship was never fully repaired in some areas and the compass platform was "never quite the same" In fact the compass platform they painted a white area on the place where one of their members lost their life as a form of memorial to them. So on the compass platform somewhere there was an area painted white that was still dented from the shell hit.

Unfortunately he does not go into detail about how the ship had the camouflage painted on it as I have now got to the chapter on the "Fall of Singapore" and the ships has already been sunk.

The Bismarck action almost nearly sunk the Prince of Wales and he seems to think it would have been sunk if the 15 inch shell had exploded that they found in the ship when it was in dry dock getting repairs. It landed so close to the aft oil reserves and magazines that it was his opinion that had it gone off there the ship would have been lost.
Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
dick wrote:
Martin J Quinn My guess is either the original light grey she was launched in or the very light/white undercoat under that. http://www.artnet.com/artists/charles-g ... sIuyHCm5w2

Thanks for your responses here and on FB. Very helpful!
Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
The terms used in British industry and the Royal Navy have for some considerable time been the same. What you term the "tie" coat, EJ Foeth, is known as the "under coat." One of its functions may well be the binding of the primer to the top coat. However, due to the fact that a primer may differ in hue from the top coat, the under coat: being much the same hue as the top, is generally used to cover the primer, hence it is often advisable to apply two coats of under coat before applying a top coat.
Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:01 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
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Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:20 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
What is "tie" coating?

81542
Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
--
Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:01 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Martin J Quinn My guess is either the original light grey she was launched in or the very light/white undercoat under that. http://www.artnet.com/artists/charles-g ... sIuyHCm5w2
Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I don't think British Capital ships wore white in WWII.
I think its just original 507-C showing through the MS paints due to wave action, the MS paints likely were not as durable as the original 507-C Admiralty paints. The overpainting of MS-4 might not have been as well prepared as the under layers.
Just a guess others will know more.
John
Post Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Attachment:
HMS_PRINCE_OF_WALES_arrives_at_Singapore,_4_December_1941._A6784_(cropped).jpg

If the lightest color in this scheme is 507C, then what's the colors coming through underneath - white?
Post Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:25 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
We've all been dancing around this without just straight out saying it, so here it is:

A great many narratives of which ships wore which paints are predicated on a flawed understanding of the colours and names assigned to them.

Whilst we do appear to be making some headway to correct the fundamental mistake here, the wider implication is that the majority of published works which touch on Royal Navy WWII camouflage are wrong.

In this particular case, there were no 507A,B,C three-tone schemes because A & B were the same. Where a 3 tone scheme is apparent in B&W photographs, they were clearly 3 tone but at a minimum one of the 3 paints named is wrong, but sometimes 2 or perhaps even all 3.

As always though, it's harder to make an authoritative statement about what paint is on a ship than it is to state what's claimed to be there is incorrect.

If someone posts a photograph of some new species of beetle and captions it as an elephant, it's much easier to say "that definitely isn't an elephant" than it is to correctly describe what kind of beetle it is. Similarly, the amount of time that goes into any one camouflage scheme of any one ship is much larger (and often with residual uncertainties at the end) than it takes to glance at a published colour illustration, compare to photographs and updated understanding of the paints available and say "Nope, that's not right".
Post Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:52 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Both 507A and 507B were the same shade: Home Fleet grey. 507B was a harder wearing paint because it contained enamel. But this made it glossy (and hence shiny) which was a disadvantage in wartime. The use of enamel in RN paints was officially discontinued in October 1940 but the use of matt surface paint was reported as 'the rule' by 18th December 1939 . On Jupiter in that photo you are probably looking at black, Home Fleet grey (507A) and Mediterranean Grey (507C).

(Re Langtree and Kelly in 1940, it rather depends exactly when you are referring to, but often where Langtree suggests 507B on 5DF destroyers in later 1940, they were actually in Mountbatten Pink.)
Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:55 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Hi
I'm trying to wrap my brain around the 507 A/B thing. I've understood that they were practically the same colour, insofar as some posts here have said they were identical (Sovereignhobbies for one).
I'm currently working on HMS Kelly, and I have POW in my stash. Christopher Langtrees book "The Kellys" say that HMS Jupiter had a three tone camo in 1940 of 507A, B and C. This picture is from that book.
Attachment:
HMS Jupiter three tone.jpg


To my eye these are three distinct colours, which makes me all the more confused. More distinct than in the table near the bottom of page 35 in this post.

If I'm to make a few guesses, this apparent difference might be because one of the colours had enamel, changing the glossiness? I'm honestly struggling a bit, and can't figure out which colour tone to use for Kelly, which is listed in the book as 507B all over as of 1940.

Thanks for all your help.
Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sovereign Hobbies have now published an updated graphic showing HMS Prince of Wales' December 1941 Camouflage scheme:
https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/british-royal-navy-colour-schemes

Which should be helpful to anyone modelling HMS Prince of Wales.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:43 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
If it were me I would apply the camouflage as normal. The highlighted bit seems to me to be just a reflection with no bearing on the overall camouflage scheme. I certainly would not think it is a different colour or anything like that.
Post Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 11:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Mr. Church wrote:
Are you referring to the two areas I am pointing to in red here?
Attachment:
POW.JPG


If so it looks to me that it is just a reflection off the near-horizontal top of the external armour belt?

I would say the same colours as you see above extend downwards onto the armour belt uninterrupted but just look different due to reflection off the near-horizontal top of the armour belt when the rest of the colour is vertical.


Yes I am, thanks. It has been one of those ongoing issues about this ship that makes it so difficult to recreate.
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:51 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Are you referring to the two areas I am pointing to in red here?
Attachment:
POW.JPG


If so it looks to me that it is just a reflection off the near-horizontal top of the external armour belt?

I would say the same colours as you see above extend downwards onto the armour belt uninterrupted but just look different due to reflection off the near-horizontal top of the armour belt when the rest of the colour is vertical.
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 12:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I checked the video and that contrast puzzle is on all frames, but none of the photographs...
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 9:51 am

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