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Topic review - HMS Prince of Wales
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  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Thank you sir
Post Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I meant the steel decks, were likely painted 507 A, MS 2 or MS 1 in that timeframe.
"Dark Grays"
I was just pointing out her wood decks were unpainted at the time of that photo series.
Post Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I was referring to the steel decks- not the planked decks.
Post Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
To me, the photo's taken at Scapa look like unpainted wood decks!
However other photos at other times indicate dark Gray. Your choice 507A or MS 2 or MS 1, are all possibilities.
Your model your call!
hth
John
Post Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Well, I have received the Colourcoats paints of the appropriate colors and am starting the model. I assume the steel decks were a dark grey but is there a particular shade of grey designated?
Walt
Post Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:09 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
SovereignHobbies wrote:
whaynes wrote:
I have re-read these 36+ pages and reviewed this discussion until I feel somewhat better about beginning construction of HMS Prince of Wales as she appeared at the end of 1941.
I assume that the diagram Mr. Duff included with his post on June 5, 2018, is the correct pattern.
And I think I'm correct with the following colors [colours]: MS 1, MS 3, B 5, B6, AP 507c.

Is this correct? Thanks for a reply.
Walt Haynes


Hi Walt,

The final iteration of our suggestion was this:

Image

Given how some known examples of B5 washed out a lot on cine film, and it was a cine film clip we had, it would taken a braver man than me to make a definitive statement that PoW used 507A rather than B5. They're similar in tone. MS1 is probably a given, and as you will have gathered the rest is our best interpretation of what we can see. Could MS4 have been B6? Perhaps, but the cine clip gives a greenish rather than bluish impression.

The above doesn't clash with anything we do have. If we ever get something better which disproves us, great - we'd all love to see it.


I have just received a shipment of the new colours, I think they look nice in that pattern above. I had been waiting a year for the paints and incidentally my holidays were booked for April. I was booked to go on the Diamond Princess around Japan but since that ship got quarantined the company cancelled early on. My April holidays are still booked so it now looks like I will be sitting down in front of the models again and painting.

I think the new colours are not as yellow toned as the WEM versions. Perhaps when they got their paint chips the paint had already started to go bad. Anyway I am wondering more now about the B5 now you mentioned it.
Post Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:24 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Thanks so much- that clears up a lot of questions for me.
Walt
Post Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:47 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
whaynes wrote:
I have re-read these 36+ pages and reviewed this discussion until I feel somewhat better about beginning construction of HMS Prince of Wales as she appeared at the end of 1941.
I assume that the diagram Mr. Duff included with his post on June 5, 2018, is the correct pattern.
And I think I'm correct with the following colors [colours]: MS 1, MS 3, B 5, B6, AP 507c.

Is this correct? Thanks for a reply.
Walt Haynes


Hi Walt,

The final iteration of our suggestion was this:

Image

Given how some known examples of B5 washed out a lot on cine film, and it was a cine film clip we had, it would taken a braver man than me to make a definitive statement that PoW used 507A rather than B5. They're similar in tone. MS1 is probably a given, and as you will have gathered the rest is our best interpretation of what we can see. Could MS4 have been B6? Perhaps, but the cine clip gives a greenish rather than bluish impression.

The above doesn't clash with anything we do have. If we ever get something better which disproves us, great - we'd all love to see it.
Post Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:40 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I have re-read these 36+ pages and reviewed this discussion until I feel somewhat better about beginning construction of HMS Prince of Wales as she appeared at the end of 1941.
I assume that the diagram Mr. Duff included with his post on June 5, 2018, is the correct pattern.
And I think I'm correct with the following colors [colours]: MS 1, MS 3, B 5, B6, AP 507c.

Is this correct? Thanks for a reply.
Walt Haynes
Post Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Hi Sutho,

All new and out of stock Sovereign Colourcoats will be coming to us in a June shipment. We are taking preorders on all colours.
Post Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:01 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Hello again,

I have been silent for a long time, and purposefully so. The more I started digging, the more I questioned the established thoughts on what these RN WW2 shades looked like. All I wanted to do was to paint my 1/350 PoW in reasonable colours. What a journey this has been. I now know what the possible shades looked like, and many look nothing like people have led us to believe. Dick sent me the AD29 data for PRS's analysis of the paint samples sent to them by Admiralty (PRS AD29 15 Oct 42, on NA 212/124) . He challenged me to convert them, and with Bruce Lindbloom's assistance, I did that. Jamie took that information onboard in revising Colourcoats, and what we have now is much better than what we had before.

We put a lot of work into the PoW scheme that Jamie put forward (MS1, 507A, MS3, MS4, 507C). It looks a lot like the colours in EJ's wonderful graphic, though the paint designators are different. Is it right? Who can say. Until we find the design sheet for PoW, we can't have any level of certainty; and to be frank, even if you know the intended shades, you still don't know exactly what went on the ship because administrative commanders had some leeway in adjusting designs, and until the standardisation of paint in 2106/43 and CB3098(R), variances in the quality of what was applied (in terms of tone and colour) may have been significant. The MS&B paint was mixed to match colour cards, there were no formulae issued, and devices like photometers to measure tone were relatively new devices and not readily available to ships staff. There is other evidence to show that there were problems mixing paint to match the desired shade before 2106/43, but I realise I am heading off topic, so won't bore you with that now.

The main reason for me posting is that I still see doubt in some that 507B was the same shade as 507A. The first thing that needs to be understood is that the designations '507A', '507B' and '507C' refer to a pattern, i.e. formulation, of paint, not to a shade (shade = colour + tone) of paint. 'Dark grey, Home Fleet shade' was a shade of paint, and it came in a number of formulae, two of which were 507B and 507A, as very clearly explained in AFO 211/39.

Attachment:
1939 1 19 AFO 211 507A 507B.jpg


As far back as AFO 1658/27 we are told that enamel is made to the shade of the paint, so if 507A is 'dark grey home fleet shade' without enamel, it is the same shade as 507B which is 'dark grey home fleet shade' with enamel that is the same shade as the paint. I can understand why people without the benefits of the www and with records still locked away would think that a 'B' paint was halfway between and 'A' and a 'C' paint, but that is quite simply the wrong assumption.

Attachment:
AFO 1658 27.png


I also noted a comment by Jamie re the perils of relying on imagery, and a quote from Schuil (optical scientist engaged by DTSD and seconded to Naval Section, CDCE, Leamington) that I had pointed him to. The document is RE CAM 30 1 1, and this is what Mr Schuil says...

Attachment:
re cam 30 1 1.png


I think it quite obvious from reading this that, if this is the quality of photograph needed for Leamington to make reasonable analysis of comparative tone, then our/my attempts to get meaning from the images that we have access to is a very hit and miss affair. There are many posts on this thread explaining the many, many variables that apply to image quality. I know that I fell into the trap of arguing the toss based on what I saw in images, and I apologise for that - I have come a long way since my amateur attempts at ship camouflage analyses two years ago. There is absolutely no way of saying with certainty that 'this must be that' from ANY image, colour or B&W, modern or historical, unless you have some scientific reference point, and even then, it will only be relevant for single point analysis as no one reference point can apply to every part of an image - too many variables. We took two years of comparing images, making allowances for colour balance problems in colour footage, et, etc to come up with the most likely shades on PoW, and even then, it is best guess.

I will end with a word of caution re WW2 paint samples. There still seems to be some reliance on analysing the colour of sample cards or physical paint samples from WW2. I can understand that - you get something physical like that in your hand and you think 'so this is really it!". But it isn't! Paints deteriorate. Oil paints darken and yellow unless kept under UV. Ultramarine pigment fades, whatever medium it is in. You only have to look at the formulae in 2106/43 to see that the proportions of thinners, oil, etc in each paint was different, so they would not age in proportion to each other. You are seeing how it looks now, not how it looked then. Here is what the Paint Research Station at Teddington had to say about how samples appeared after only a few weeks in dark storage - it is not hard to imagine what 70 years of storage might do...

Attachment:
212 124.png


Regards,
Lindsay
Post Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:46 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Hello all,

I agree with Sutho that the barrels of the 5.25s are camouflaged. My take on it is that they are painted to fit the shade of the overall pattern of the ship when the turrets are trained in their stowed (fore/aft) position. I.e. they are not disrupted as the 14" barrels are, but painted to be hidden in the overall scheme. The best image that I know of to display this is...https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205170702.

You will see in this and other images that some barrels are in a single shade, others are in two shades because in the stowed condition, they 'cross' the boundary between two camouflage panels on the superstructure. Please don't be deceived by images of elevated/trained barrels looking lighter or darker than my advice suggests - this can readily be attributed to lighting conditions.

Regards,
Lindsay
Post Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Hi All,

As far as I can remember there are images of Churchill leaving PoW on a destroyer showing some form of camo on P1 5.25 barrels plus I think the Pathe News reel film of the Halberd convoy shows P1 firing with some form of camo upon them?

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:57 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
This is one here where I think there are different tones of colour on the barrel of one of the secondarys.

Also the one looking aft where you can just glimpse some barrels there is what appears to be distinct patterns on them. You can see the forward most secondary barrels are not in pattern but all of the ones aft of it that have been cut off and not quite in the image appear to have a pattern.
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:30 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
I don't see camouflage on the barrels of the secondaries in any of the IWM shots (or any other). Can you post the image?


I will have to go through the images again and try and find it.
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:20 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
D'ja ever think when you asked the question seven years ago that it would spawn a discussion that lasted this long and changed what we know about history?
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:11 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Thanks EJ. I've made another tweak. The barrels will have to wait a while!
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:42 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I don't see camouflage on the barrels of the secondaries in any of the IWM shots (or any other). Can you post the image?
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:03 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
mister me wrote:
Steel decks in NARN23 I presume ?

Also shall you give a better pic resolution for barrel camo ?

Thanks for all this work and waiting for EU continental stockists concerning new NARN range !


To make matters harder, I believe the secondary turrets gun barrels had camouflage on them in the same manner as the main turrets. I have glimpsed photos on IWM website that caught evidence of this but it was too little of just one secondary turret to get a pattern.
Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
It would have been far easier to slap your logo on that drawing :big_grin:

Not all zones on the barrels are correct; it's very difficult to make out the contrast differences between MS3 and MS4.. some regions may require changes.


Also, there's also one error on Y-turret in that last one (colour filling error...) , use this one for reference

Attachment:
POW-playingarounds.jpg
Post Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:20 am

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