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Topic review - HMS Prince of Wales
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  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
There are many plugins that simulate all kinds of films (e.g, http://www.psdfilm.com/black-white-film ... oshop.html) so if you know the spectral response of ww2 films it should be possible.
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:44 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Tracy White wrote:
Sutho wrote:
I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in.


Does photoshop create grayscale the same way WWII film did?


AFAIK no software truly mimics either orthochromatic or panchromatic film and their unique quirks (such as making blues appear lighter in panchromatic case or making yellows and reds look very dark in orthochromatic case), but rather averages the RGB colour coordinates out and applies the average to each, thus arriving at a "true" greyscale. Close enough when dealing with fairly neutral colours but not quite there
Post Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:10 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sutho wrote:
I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in.


Does photoshop create grayscale the same way WWII film did?
Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
The photos are very unusual and the dark lines where not there at the time of sinking or appear not to be there. It is certainly not appearing to be there on that Atlantic conference it did either.

Is there any reason that the area could be wet or covered in water that spilt from the decks for some reason that darkened it at the time of the photo like for a wash-down. It is just very bizarre and does not make sense at all being that dark.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:44 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sutho wrote:
Do you have the full size of all those images you can send me so that I can have a closer look. It seems to me that the dark line extends the entire length of the ship depending on how dark or light the paint is.


Except for one, those shots are pretty much 100% size. That is, zooming in shows little else.

Sutho wrote:
The one above with Churchill waving is most unusual as it has patches of almost black that should not exist that are almost in a perfect straight line parallel to the railings.


That is the top of the armor belt so that is perfectly fine. Perhaps they did paint to top of the belt with another colour as some counter-shading or perhaps it it caused somewhere down the line from film production towards reproduction, but suggesting it is picture damage that somehow perfectly captures the belt and not Churchill standing in front of it does not compute. Fact: the top of the belt appears very dark on that and several other photographs.

The shots of HSM PoW arriving in Singapore do not show a MS1 top belt, but, you cannot make out any difference between regions of A & B on top of the belt as is the case on nearly all images. Perhaps the top-belt A regions are also B.
Post Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:49 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
Really? Incidentally only visible for a white funnel cap.

Attachment:
Belt.jpg


Do you have the full size of all those images you can send me so that I can have a closer look. It seems to me that the dark line extends the entire length of the ship depending on how dark or light the paint is.

The one above with Churchill waving is most unusual as it has patches of almost black that should not exist that are almost in a perfect straight line parallel to the railings.
Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:18 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Really? Incidentally only visible for a white funnel cap.

Attachment:
Belt.jpg
Post Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:55 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
The bridge looks fairly consistent in pretty much all of the B&W photographs of PoW on her way to or arriving in Singapore, but I am struggling to reconcile those with the colour clip from Gibraltar. Am I seeing a Tone A swoop on the side of the bridge on the colour clip, or is it just shadow from under the signal deck? I'm now thinking it's just a shadow and that it didn't change.


That area is typically black in appearance on virtually every shot (even pre-camo) but I think this shot shows it's not shaded but simply local color.

Attachment:
frame_06.jpg


Also, the top of the armor belt appears much darker in some images, but not all. Many photographs even suggest that B was painted on top of the armor belt where you'd expect A, but some shots show a very dark line even in regions of B.

Attachment:
Presspic_POWChurchill.jpg


The image is very strange indeed particularly with a very parallel black line so close to the guard rail line. I am beginning to think that it is an error with the film and not a correct image - https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/pho ... rrors.html - I have not had time to read the entire article but I think the last photo you posted is probably most definitely some sort of damage on the film, processing error or printing error.
Post Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
SovereignHobbies wrote:
The bridge looks fairly consistent in pretty much all of the B&W photographs of PoW on her way to or arriving in Singapore, but I am struggling to reconcile those with the colour clip from Gibraltar. Am I seeing a Tone A swoop on the side of the bridge on the colour clip, or is it just shadow from under the signal deck? I'm now thinking it's just a shadow and that it didn't change.


That area is typically black in appearance on virtually every shot (even pre-camo) but I think this shot shows it's not shaded but simply local color.

Attachment:
frame_06.jpg


Also, the top of the armor belt appears much darker in some images, but not all. Many photographs even suggest that B was painted on top of the armor belt where you'd expect A, but some shots show a very dark line even in regions of B.

Attachment:
Presspic_POWChurchill.jpg
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sutho wrote:
I am not sure if I am onto something here but again with that "periodic table of colours" I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in. I cross referenced them with the correct year on the chart. I put B6 in as B30 and 507C in as well as B5. I made the mistake of labelling 507A as G5 when I misread the wrong column.


The scheme may be correct by accident, but it is highly unlikely to be a combination of pre-April 1943 Pattern 507s and Standard Camouflage Colours plus post-April 1943 B&G series. It will either be MS1, 507A, B5, B6 and 507C designations, or it will be G5, G10, B15, B30 and G45 designations - assuming the colours themselves are identified correctly which I haven't looked in to.

Lindsay and I have been toying with relative tonal analysis offline and whilst it does work to a degree as you can see, it's hard to draw definitive conclusions from it.

It may have been A.E. Schuil who has left behind archived records discussing in 1941/42 how hard it is to photograph relative tone faithfully. Infact he went as far as to list the necessary conditions to be satisfied in order to be able to use photographs for assessment of relative tone and we agreed that in practise those conditions could not be met.

It does still provide an indication though. What you have done is demonstrate why I have had to change most of the colours even if the Snyder & Short versions were close in characteristics. When converted to black and white their relative tones are all wrong as compared to documented numerical values in the archives.

The Snyder & Short ones will never properly reconcile with reality in tone, and hence, all interpretations of colour schemes based on the Alan Raven / Snyder & Short colours are suspect.

One cannot correctly state "this looks like X, Y and Z" if one's understanding of X, Y and Z is incorrect.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sutho wrote:

I am still looking at them as two different colours with 507B as a 50/50 mix just to be safe.

I am still open minded about what it can be and have converted the new colour chart published by Sovereign to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and added a few patches for comparison. I know it will never be 100% perfect and it may even be way out.

Edit - MS3 photo added - bridge note blotch below it.


I can see your logic, but to avoid muddying the waters it may be safer to use "50/50" nomenclature on the swatches currently labelled 507B to clarify what is meant.

Having said that, the 50/50 mix of 507A and 507C described in CAFO 1112/42 is quite clear in its intentions that medium tone mixed grey is for use in emergency camouflage without pattern. To find it amidst a patterned scheme amongst all the other shore-supplied MS & possibly B paints would seem unusual.

I don't think arguments that 507B literally was a 50/50 mix of anything really holds any credibility now. For that to be true, the Admiralty would have needed to be at odds with the sea-going fleet at large because the Admiralty have left a substantial paper trail in the archives of 507B being as we described in the recent paper - i.e. just an inter-war formulation for Home Fleet Grey with enamel to make it harder wearing.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:02 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I am not sure if I am onto something here but again with that "periodic table of colours" I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in. I cross referenced them with the correct year on the chart. I put B6 in as B30 and 507C in as well as B5. I made the mistake of labelling 507A as G5 when I misread the wrong column.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:53 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
dick wrote:
Sutho wrote:
….to me where I put the 507A and 507B ….


Are you still working on the basis that 507A & 507B were two different colours?


I am still looking at them as two different colours with 507B as a 50/50 mix just to be safe.

I am still open minded about what it can be and have converted the new colour chart published by Sovereign to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and added a few patches for comparison. I know it will never be 100% perfect and it may even be way out.

Edit - MS3 photo added - bridge note blotch below it.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Time for a stupid question:

The bridge looks fairly consistent in pretty much all of the B&W photographs of PoW on her way to or arriving in Singapore, but I am struggling to reconcile those with the colour clip from Gibraltar. Am I seeing a Tone A swoop on the side of the bridge on the colour clip, or is it just shadow from under the signal deck? I'm now thinking it's just a shadow and that it didn't change.

I am wondering if a combination of B6 and MS3 might comprise the bridge; a look similar to that on the famous IWM colour Seafire photographs showing Indomitable's island behind.
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:59 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Sutho wrote:
….to me where I put the 507A and 507B ….


Are you still working on the basis that 507A & 507B were two different colours?
Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
This file here I edited in Adobe Lightroom. For this one I used the white balance needle and did a auto white balance based on the white stripe at the top of the funnel to attain a white balance solution for the image. I then did and auto tone and enhanced the clarity vibrance and saturation slightly and did a dehaze. This is the result.

I have a few more edits I want to do with a auto white balance based on other areas.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
I have done a quick add with 507C some B5 patches and B6.

I am going to try a few things in Adobe Lightroom when I get the chance and try and dehaze it, saturate it more and bring out the colours. The aft section had always looked distinctively blueish to me where I put the 507A and 507B but have put B5 in also. I put B6 at the bow.

If those colours were on the ship then it may well have faded considerably.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Can you please try 507C against the front of the bridge, just below the protruding windbreakers? Just above where the band of Tone A visible on the side of the bridge superstructure? It looks bluish and thus should either be 507C or B6.

With the colour balance changes you have made, the Tone B panel immediately above your 507A swatch is starting to look like B5 rather than 507A.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:45 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
EJFoeth wrote:
dick wrote:
Yes re A=MS1 but to me E (if a five colour scheme) has always looked like a matt 507C. If there was any MS4A then it would be F. A candidate for F has always been that tricksy diagonal on the hull’s port quarter, but if that ever was MS4A there it looks like it got painted out something darker (507C) fairly soon (or maybe this is how it got left accounting for the flaring so often seen there).


For some reason the diagonal on the stern always to me appears much lighter than the other regions marked as E.

An MS1/507A/B/MS3/MS4/(MS4a/507C) combination does have a better change of explaining why C/D are so difficult to distinguish on some photographs. Also, with the new color swatches edited in the colour frame

Attachment:
POW_frame.jpg


it takes less imagination to match D to MS4 than 507C... Region D does appear to have a bit of blue in it but the color footage also seems overly blue.

The 2D mockups I made result in a very dark layout that I even called unconvincing at first; perhaps a 3D mockup with the new MS4 may work much better. So I remain (as always) in doubt...


I have done another photoshop edit. I gave the image more cyan and less red and more blue and less yellow. At the moment it matches almost MS4. If I double the values of what I increased the two colours by it would match 507C but looks unrealistic. I think MS4 is credible.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Prince of Wales  Reply with quote
Hi All,

Hi DavidP, sorry I didn't explain that too well! As Jamie says the matt MS and B paints were oil/water paints according to the files on record, an early emulsion type. Back then there were quite a few different types of paint, tar based and even wool soap!

They were emulsion types as oil based paints, especially those with enamel, caused a phenomenon known as flash, where the downside of the reflective nature of these paints outweighed their wear properties.

Initially the successors to the MS and B paints, the G and B series (G10, B15 etc), were supplied as samples in this emulsion paint but again due to their wear properties they were replaced with traditional linseed oil paints.

As far as I can recall there are orders that mention the use of traditional oil paints as an undercoat, as there were also emulsion type paints that equated to Home Fleet grey and Foreign Stations grey (507a and 507c basically). I'm sure Richard or Jamie may remember this better.

I'm sure with all the experts here on the forum even a best guess will result in us being closer to the PoW scheme and help us identify the many other schemes too!

Unfortunately my uncle did not speak too much about his service on PoW, I recall making the Tamiya model in that strange green camo seen on the box art and he didn't recognise it as PoW at all. His only comments regarding her paint scheme were, that she was painted to look like a Mediterranean cruiser, which may be a false memory or jolly Jack rumour, and that whilst 'painting ship' he was once brought before the captain by the 'jimmy the one' for climbing up the anchor chain and out through the hawse in an attempt to beat his mates to the rum ration. Captain Leach let him off with a "dont do it again", and I think the first officer had a lot of potatoes that required peeling!

Best wishes
Cag.
Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:48 am

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