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Topic review - HMS Hood colour as lost (again)
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  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
With regard to paints, I've recently obtained AK Interactive's Royal Navy Camouflage Set 1. It contains hull red, 507A, B and C (probably based on S&S chips or possibly formulae for other paints that were based on the chips), deck tan and B5. AK supposedly incorporate "scale effect" into their formulae. I also believe they are likely meant to be used with their filters, etc. Even so, I am of very "mixed" opinion for now (pardon the pun...).

Here are my observations thus far:

A. Hull Red- Its more like maroon to me. Reminds me of Japanese hull red (at least it does if used straight/as-is without highlighting or filtering etc.). Its definitely not red lead!
B. Wooden Deck- This is fine. Of course, its a pretty bog standard shade not too dissimilar from Vallejo Iraqi Sand.
C. B5- No comment. Hood never wore this colour so to me it doesn't exist (but for what its worth, it looks like a med blue-grey).
D. 507A - It strikes me as being dark with no bluish tinge. My wife (who has an excellent eye for subtleties of colour, etc....must be from art school) said pretty much the same thing...plain dark grey.
E. 507B- It looks very similar to the old WEM RN02 507B, albeit a tad darker and a wee bit less bluish. Still too light for the real HF grey. Perhaps it could be darkened...
F. 507C- Looks "muddy" to me. Not bluish enough. It very much reminds me of Tamiya's XF-80...which doesn't strike me as being very accurate in and of itself. I only mention this for folks who want to build Hood circa '36-'39.

I've posted image here which compares various greys to the original, old WEM RN01 507A. Yes, its true that RN01 is too dark, but its something many of us are familiar with and may work as a baseline for comparison (albeit roughly). Among the other paints are the AK Interactive 507A and the Testors 507A that someone asked about earlier (albeit an acrylic version). There is also a swatch of the “hull red.“ Please forgive the poor quality of this endeavour, but I am temporarily one-handed for a few months and cannot easily airbrush. I had to glob the paint on with my non dominant hand. I also had lighting issues (but this was taken outside in late afternoon with the sun behind a tree (no direct glare). Even so, it gives one an impression of how the paints look in comparison to one another. So, this is certainly just a rough "FYI" sort of thing! Its in no way scientific or precise. I don't know if it helps, but hopefully it does.

Note: I tweaked the wording a few times after initially posting this (as no one had responded, I thought I would take the opportunity to make some corrections/updates here and there).
Post Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:35 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Thanks for the answer, so basically red lead, poss darkened with black and a grey undercoat.

Something to work with.

Cheers, Jabb
Post Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
This set of instructions from 1943 is typical:
Post Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Hi Jamie et al.. thank you for your research and experimentation into this fascinating subject, you are certainly shedding some light on what, until fairly recently, has been a grey area (see what I did there?)

But of course, there is a whole other layer to this issue, actually lots of layers!

In your papers, do you have detail of the surface preparation and base layers prior to the final coat? It would be interesting to find detail of primer, undercoat and protective layer colours which would appear as the paint wore and chipped away.

Presumably these would have been, like the outer finish, subject to directives from the Admiralty? So, are we looking at a black or grey primer, a pink or green undercoat and then the red oxide followed by the surface finish?

Cheers, Jabb
Post Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Ok, I think the dim bulb is starting to brighten. lol :woo_hoo:

And I purchased the detail set from Pontos as I had heard about the inaccuracies thanks to this forum. I have done some work on it but decided to pause for awhile to make sure I get the correct (as possible) paint.

I've attached a picture of my current progress. Yes, her temporary dock is atop my fish tank. :big_grin: I had started using Dark ghost Grey on the turret areas until I realized that I should probably try and find something closer to real life.

I thank everyone for their help, it's been great.

Going to do a side build; a 1:72 Handley Page Victor to keep my occupied while I wait for the other paint to arrive.

https://www.twitch.tv/tardis1916/
Post Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:04 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Tardis- I’m guessing you are building the Trumpeter 1/200 kit? I’m also guessing that if you’re interested in getting precise colours, you’re also interested in detailing the kit. If so, our article at http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models ... ter200.htm might be of interest. It just points out a few things to be aware of.

There are some excellent aftermarket detail sets and 3D parts which can go a long way towards fixing Trumpeter’s confounding errors (they chose to believe nicely-drawn yet nonetheless erroneous is morskie style publications rather than the people who know the ship best, but no, I’m not bitter, LOL). Folks have been turning out some excellent builds. If only it were not the size of a small car I might consider building one too...
Post Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:08 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Not quite. I believe that from the outbreak of war 507B stocks would have been used up, but communications exist summarising that ships in the Home Fleet were painted dark grey and in a matt finish, which suggests that 507B was overcoated with 507A OR potentially an equivalent shade of matt paint made by a dockyard.

Remember that Admiralty Patterns are an exact specification/formulation, not a colour. In terms of paint we (and the RN) often summarise to simply saying 507A or 507B when what we really mean is "Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade".

This may seem like semantics but it's important to understand the distinction because to be Admiralty Pattern 507B it has to contain the 10 pints of Pattern 11 Dark Grey Enamel which makes the resultant CWT of 507B somewhat glossy.

I believe Hood was simply painted Home Fleet Grey. As enamel use was ordered ceased in 1940, no new paint would contain enamel therefore Admiralty Pattern 507B defacto ceased to exist. By the time Hood was repainted 2 weeks before she was lost it's highly unlikely that anyone still had stocks of 507B sat around mixed up to apply and even if they did, the exterior finish would certainly have been overall matt finish.

Thus, whilst I say 507A, the pedantic but accurate answer is "Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade in a matt finish".

As a by-the-by, Home Fleet Grey is quoted in contemporary documentation has having either 10% or 13% light reflectance value, so I made both for modellers.

Apologies for the lengthy post but it's useful to understand what is fixed and what is variable in subjects like this :)
Post Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:14 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
And of course with me being the dim bulb in the box, Jamie, am I correct to understand that you believe the Hood was a mix of A & B? about 13% B that is?
Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Well, I for one are grateful for all the help. I did my enamel paint chip samples for Jamie but I'm going to hold off sending them for a bit as it's a holiday tomorrow here for one but also, Jeff Herne of scalecolors.com has offered to mix some acrylic paint for me so I'll wait for those to arrive and I'll do paint chips of those too to send to Jamie for his take on both brands. Hopefully, one of them will be "correct" or close to. :woo_hoo:
Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
FW_Allen wrote:
Oh yeah, also don’t get me started on the 1941 aerial spreader! :heh:


Au contraire, do get yourself started on that spreader, because I still don't know what it looks like (exactly) :heh:
Post Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
I’ve seen the Testors paints. You can obviously avoid their 507B as it’s med grey ( I know you didn’t ask about that one, but others out there might see it and wonder about it). Their 507A and 507C are “in the ballpark.” They aren’t Colourcoats accurate mind you, but should be good enough for folks who don’t want to mix and prefer to use acrylics. Caveat: This is based purely on “eyeballing” it , so YMMV! Obviously, I too would be interested in seeing how both compare to the new Colourcoats formulae. We do like to present alternatives in our painting instructions after all.


Okay, time for me to disappear again for a couple of years, LOL.
Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:54 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Wow, I really need to remember to log in a bit more often. It’s been a little while hasn’t it?

For the record, we (Hood Association) stand by Jamie and the team’s work. I’ve seen the Kew and Pompey docs myself and they’ve gone well beyond that. Indeed, it’s quite clear from their extremely in-depth research that they’ve come up with something definitive that we can all safely rely upon. They really went above and beyond.

So, the old “medium grey” thing is simply wrong.

The person who originally researched our paint colours 30+ years ago recorded it as AP507B. Later, when the S&S’s paint chips came out, we put two and two together and, well, lots of people painted their Hoods a bit light as a result! It’s not the end of the world of course, but I do feel a badly about it. I wish it was just a conspiracy to get people to buy and build more Hood models, but no, it was an honest mistake...we’re only human after all.

So, we’ve tried to update our painting instructions accordingly.

Of course, to be perfectly honest, these days I’m less concerned about exact shades of colour...my rivet counting days are behind me. I’m simply happy to see people build models of Hood...even if they’re ones of dubious accuracy such as Heller and Lindberg, or, an over-priced disappointment such as the Trumpeter 1/200 “step-back”Hood (so-called because they used dates plans and “undid” various things they had previously gotten right...). That’s just me though, others will have a different take on the matter. That’s not to say that we still won’t try to present accurate info on our website though (obviously we want our materials to be accurate).

Well, actually there IS one thing that I still get riled up about: why on earth do so many modelers continue to mount their “as sunk” Hoods’ forward Carley Floats in pairs just behind the conning tower? That is sooooo 1940! Oh yeah, also don’t get me started on the 1941 aerial spreader! :heh:
Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:52 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Yes, I hail from the "land of cheeseburgers and heartburn" to quote Dominic Santini played by the late Ernest Borgnine in an episode of Airwolf back in 1984.

I appreciate your help with this, I'll get my airbrush ready and make some chips on some scrap plastic I have. I'll send two of each, one set on white primer and the other on grey primer as that can sometimes change the final color. I have plenty of each primer. I'll PM you for the address to send them to.

Thanks,

Stephen
Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:12 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
tardis1916 wrote:
Here I come to beat the dead horse, again.

Sorry

I came across Testors 2169 "507A Dark Grey RN" and 2170 "507C Light Grey RN"

Would the 507A be good for my 1/200 Hood or should it be lightened?


I take it you're in the USA? I'm in the UK but if you would care to send me a 1 inch square chip of them I'll measure them and give you an objective comparison to what we believe are the true nominal colour values.
Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:43 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Here I come to beat the dead horse, again.

Sorry

I came across Testors 2169 "507A Dark Grey RN" and 2170 "507C Light Grey RN"

Would the 507A be good for my 1/200 Hood or should it be lightened?
Post Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:27 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
I have built Hood once already, but in the old understanding of colours :(
Image

I have the 1/200 kit and Pontos set put aside. It's getting time to make models that is difficult.

The new Home Fleet Grey (exact same as on the wood board in above photographs) is the dark grey on my current destroyer build along with our new, slightly darkened, Mediterranean Grey.

Image
Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:56 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
SovereignHobbies wrote:
The Hood Association site is run by Frank Allen and it's a part-time thing as most information sites are. The schemes on our own site were written in WEM days. Following this thread, I've made a start on updating them where I can. Some (disruptive pattern schemes) need to be revisited though.

The medium grey thing, wherever it is stated, appears to be baseless. I'd thought that was demonstrated but I may be struggling to articulate the point definitively enough. The full expanded description of Home Fleet grey was "Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade". From 1936 to 1940 this paint was only listed in the Rate Book as Admiralty Pattern 507B.

AFO211/39 introduced Admiralty Patter 507A on 19th January 1939:
Quote:
Dark grey paint, Home Fleet shade, for other than weather work, is being added to the Authorised List as Pattern 507a. The formula is the same as for Pattern 507B except that the enamel is omitted.

2. The description of Pattern 507B has been amplified to read:- "Paint mixed dark grey, Home Fleet shade, for weather work"


Capital ships on Home Fleet station in Home Fleet Grey.

CB3016 extract memo on 18th December 1939 read:
Quote:
Sir,
With reference to your letter No.N.C.388/6801 of 8th November , 1939, I am commanded by My Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to inform you that H.M. Ships on foreign stations are painted as follows (vide C.B.3016(37), paragraph 261), and C.B.3016 (34), paragraph 179):-

Cruisers and larger vessels - light grey all over
Destroyers - dark grey hulls and light grey upper works
Submarines - royal blue on Mediterranean Station, and a dark olive colour on China Station.

2. All ships of the Home Fleet, including submarines, are painted Home Fleet grey, and a matt surface paint is employed both at home and on foreign stations.


Home Fleet Temporary Memorandum 288 dated 20th August 1940 reinforces the evidence for use of Home Fleet grey with this:
Quote:
...
2. Capital ships and aircraft carriers of the Home Fleet when in Home Waters are to be painted Home Fleet Grey. Cruisers, at the discretion... blah blah etc etc



If a medium grey was in use on capital ships, the Admiralty were entirely unaware of it, and furthermore the fleets were in mass disobedience of the Admiralty.

The only reference to a medium grey existing in a formal capacity is within the context of CAFO 1112/42 (available to download from my website https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-c-a-f-o-1112-camouflage-of-sea-going-ships-june-1942) which permits a mix of 507A and 507C, named as Home Fleet grey and gave this specific context:
Quote:
V. EMERGENCY DESIGNS : CAMOUFLAGE WITHOUT PATTERN
21. In the following paragraphs instructions are given for painting a ship with a simple equivalent
of each class of design described in Section III above, using only White, Home Fleet Grey and
Mediterranean Grey.
These schemes of painting will be of about the same value for concealment as patterned designs,
but will produce less confusion. They are intended for use when there is no time to obtain or paint to a
pattered camouflage design.
Little experience has been gained with these emergency designs and the equivalent (a) of LIGHT
TONE designs should not be applied to ships larger than Destroyers, except for special operations, owing
to the increased visibility in sunlight.
(a) Equivalent of LIGHT TONE Designs. All weather work should be painted pure white except
for a band right round the ship, extending from the water-line half-way up to the forecastle
deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships without a forecastle deck. This band should be
Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and should cover the boot topping (vide C.A.F.O.
2515/41).
(b) Equivalent of LIGHT MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C except for a band right round the ship, extending from the
water-line half-way up to the forecastle deck or half-way up to the upper deck in ships
without a forecastle deck. This band should be painted with a mixture of equal parts Light
Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A
, and should cover the
boot topping (vide C.A.F.O. 2515/41).
(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a
mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern
507A.
(d) Equivalent of DARK TONE Designs. – All upper works should be painted with a mixture of
equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
The
hull should be painted all Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.
(e) In all Schemes of Painting the undersides of platforms and horizontal projections, blast
shields, etc. should be painted White. All parts of a ship which are permanently in shade or
shadow should also be painted White.

My bold above


I have seen not one shred of evidence that an all over medium grey scheme existed. Even the CAFO1112 emergency mix above was only to be used on part of the ship, not all over.

There was a little wriggle room on the exact tone of Home Fleet Grey, as described in here https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-pattern-507s-g10-and-g45.


The only challenge attempted on the above was on Steel Navy, where Alan Raven told me that Claude Muncaster had told him that 507B was a mix of 507A and 507C. Given that we know the Admiralty was publishing Rate Books and Fleet Orders which directly contradict that, we may explain that anomaly by speculating that Claude Muncaster was infact referring to the emergency mix paint - something that did happen during his tenure.


To repeat - if there ever was a Admiralty Pattern 507B Medium Grey during the run up to or during the Second World War, the Admiralty was unaware of it - because the Admiralty believed it was Dark Grey, Home Fleet shade - or simply Home Fleet Grey.

On a model it's immaterial as in real life the only visible difference was whether it had a glossy or a matt finish.

As posted previously on this site, this is our 13%RF version of Home Fleet Grey outdoors against a black pseudo boot-topping. That chip is one of six cut from a post card sprayed with the prototype shade I mixed, measured and iterated:

Image
Image

As evidenced, the dark grey looks right in context. They trouble everyone is probably having is getting their head around the fact that Snyder & Short's 507A and B are BOTH non-representative of Home Fleet Grey. The "507A Dark Grey" is too dark and the "507B Medium Grey" is too light. Neither of them is a good representation of Home Fleet Grey. As some can only apparently process a single variable at a time, upon hearing that 507B "Medium Grey" didn't exist they default to their present very dark impression of 507A then struggle to reconcile that with photographic evidence from the real ships.



So good to see these photos. Thank you.

Im VERY happy now with how my own Trumpeter 1941 1/700 Hood came out. That settles it for me.

I suggedt you build a Hood yourself and demonstrate the paints yiu sell in action. It is hard for people to figure out but if you have a ship painted in your paints it makes all the sense then.
Post Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:18 pm
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Dan Banks wrote:
One thing in this discussion that hasn’t really been touched on, not specifically the Hood, is that there were many examples of RN ships, mainly cruisers and destroyers, that were in a three toned grey schemes. We now know about 507A/B, with only the difference in reflectance, and 507C, what was the third grey? Many of the ships in the Mediterranean used this three toned grey scheme. The logical conclusion is that it was the emergency mix. What it boils down to is we will have the basic colors for the Royal Navy with this new release from Sovereign, and you can lighten or darken them to suit your modeling requirements. Especially in 1/700 scale. I lighten almost everything, especially dark colors, on models.


Re the Mediterranean Fleet multi tone schemes introduced in August 1940, I'm afraid that there is no general way of knowing what the medium and darker shades of grey were. All proportions of mixes were possible. To quote from the Mediterranean Fleet War diary of 7th August 1940:

"All ships are being dazzle painted on the following principles:

(a) A foundation of Mediterranean grey
(b) Dazzles of a darker colour, chosen by Commanding Officers, but of not too strong a contrast."

So whilst it would be logical to assume that many used HFG as the dark shade, and that a 50/50 mix was also perfectly logical for something in-between, I think that the evidence relating to each ship has to be considered on a case by case basis......
Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:04 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
Hi Graham,

No slur was intended so please don't think it was meant as such.

There are many like yourself (and myself) who want confirmation of the orthodox but unusual schemes do appeal to many also just for their diversity which is reasonable - a different scheme is interesting and I'm always keen on one if I can satisfy myself it's right.

All I'm saying, and directing at nobody in particular but rather taking account that these words will be here for others to see for a long time after we've moved on to other subjects, that any desire to justify an atypical scheme for Hood specifically should consider the relative weights of evidence supporting a normal HFG scheme versus that suggesting something else.

To reiterate, no slur was intended :) I'm merely stating for the record that my money is on HFG in line with all the stated documentation and normal practises at that point in time for capital ships of the Home Fleet. :thumbs_up_1:
Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:11 am
  Post subject:  Re: HMS Hood colour as lost (again)  Reply with quote
I recognise that the idea of finding something unique and interesting appeals to many

I think this is a nasty slur actually. I'm just trying to follow what evidence I can read (and see from photographs) and paint my model as accurately as it is possible to do - not seeking something "different" just for the sake of it. Quite a lot of what is published online and in books can be erroneous and so-called facts become dogma - Luftwaffe camouflage and colours especially. Also see the confusion of the Royal Navy greys that this thread is partly based on !! I consider myself a good observer of differences and similarities, being a professional taxonomist (someone who studies biodiversity, describing new species, genera etc) and a modeler of 50 years' experience.
GrahamB
Post Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:04 pm

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