The Ship Model Forum

The old generic 1/700 WEM aircraft set is very much a FAA set. I think it is still available from Tom's modelworks.
[quote="Timmy C"]Just got the IHP HMCS Warrior - long-awaited, much appreciated!

Apologies if mentioned already, but what options are there to dress up the kit's Seafires and Fireflies? Other than L'Arsenal's entire aircraft sets, are there any PE-only sets out there for Fleet Air Arm aircraft?[/quote]

The countershading on these is quite misleading (which was precisely the intent). Richard Dennis and I have been working on a profile of HMS Ocean for a while - the camouflage aspect has been finished for months but I'm working on improving the AA weapons which is taking me much too long.

We have gathered a lot of stuff for HMS Glory as well and I think we may do that one next.

Just got the IHP HMCS Warrior - long-awaited, much appreciated!

Apologies if mentioned already, but what options are there to dress up the kit's Seafires and Fireflies? Other than L'Arsenal's entire aircraft sets, are there any PE-only sets out there for Fleet Air Arm aircraft?

Here's what I see. I'm going to use Glory as reference since I have decent pics.

I see black and white photos that have been scanned and adjusted in computers with various software.
This means that along with light angles and exposures, brightness and contrast cannot be trusted, so you have to put things into perspective.
For instance, I know for a fact that WWII camo paint was frequently washed off the hulls of British ships by the sea.
I also know that paints faded very quickly at sea.
This leads me to the conclusion that the photos showing the dark panel to be lighter, are not showing what is actually there.

Here's a comparison of Glory before and after several long sea voyages.

[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%201945%201.jpg[/img]

Points of interest,
The later photo seems to show that the dark panel is a lighter colour. However,
1 - The aft end of the dark panel is visible in both pics.
2 - The top colour is different than the lower panel dark colour in both pics.
3 - The Forward end of the dark panel has been washed away by the sea.

In this second pic, you can see the remains of the Forward end of the dark panel on the port side, as well as primer or very dark paint showing through the top coat.

[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%20Vancouver,%20Nov-Dec%201945%202.jpg[/img]

In these photos you can see details of the white undershading.
I'd also like to point out that on [b]Glory[/b], the forward area that everyone thinks is white, is darker than the white used in the undershading.
Is it white (or off white)? Or is it a really light shade of gray, like G45? I don't know.
I do know that on Warrior and Colossus it [b][i]is[/i][/b] the same shade of white as the undershading.

[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%20Esquimalt%20BC,%20Nov-Dec%201945.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%20Vancouver,%20Nov-Dec%201945%201.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%20Vancouver,%20Nov-Dec%201945%203.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%20Vancouver,%20Nov-Dec%201945%204.jpg[/img]

Here is a comparison of some sponsons. I am finding it very challenging to determine if it is white on the slanted portion, or G45.
The photos are inconclusive as far as I'm concerned., there is just too much glare and shadow to be sure.

[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Sponson%20painting.jpg[/img]

And finally, if I were to paint her, this is how I would do it.

[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Glory%20Comp'd/Glory%20Colours.jpg[/img]

[quote="Rick_H"]Do you thing the other three carriers in Rear Admiral Harcourt's 11ACS would have matched the paint change on Venerable, or just retained the panel?[/quote]

There are photos of Colossus on her way to Korea, Glory at Rabaul and Vengeance at Hong Kong that can all be dated to September 1945. They show that all three retained the B20 panel until that time at least.

[quote="NavyShooter"]Dumb question as a further counterpoint.

Those 'white' bits are all areas where there is an angled overhang projecting from the boat bays.

Is it possible that the 'white' is actually still the same colour, but showing a reflection or lighting shift due to the angle?

NS[/quote]
The predominant source of light at sea is the sky, so any overhang would reflect *less* light and appear as a shadow/darker than the surrounding paint, never brighter unless painted a lighter colour.

Dick - thanks for the answer. That sounds very reasonable.
Now, how about a conjecture? Do you thing the other three carriers in Rear Admiral Harcourt's 11ACS would have matched the paint change on Venerable, or just retained the panel?

[quote="dick"]....I don�t have many photos of her in service in this scheme and it is very hard to see a B20 hull panel in them so it is perhaps possible that Venerable was just light grey G45 with white countershading? Maybe others will have better photos that might answer this question?[/quote]

Thanks to the links to various photos provided there is an answer I think: Venerable had the B20 panel early in 1945 during work up and in the Mediterranean but did not have it on arriving in Australia late July and continued not to have it during the re-occupation of Hong Kong during September 1945.

I seem to have thoroughly misinterpreted the information I was seeing on photos. I thought the white countershading was just an addition to the Admiralty scheme with the Blue panel, but after reading your thoughts here (several of you) and looking at the photos at [url]http://www.vlaggeschipsmaldeel5.nl/html/scheepsfoto_s_1.html[/url], it really looks to me that there was no panel of any kind, just a solid color bow to stern with white countershading at the ends and below the overhangs.

The photos on that page are only for Venerable, but I had believed the other three carriers in ACS11 were painted similarly.

(I'm not clear on the rules for copying photos to this site, so I will just provide links.)
Colossus: [url]https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_colossus_15_john_w_evans_collection_page_1.htm[/url] 9th photo from the top does show a panel.

Vengeance: [url]https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_vengeance_71.htm[/url]
2nd photo from the top does show a panel.

Glory: https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_glory_62.htm
1st and 2nd photos do show a panel.

Back to Venerable: https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_venerable_16_george_deeks_collection_page_1.htm (top photo) seems to show a distinct panel.

Dumb question as a further counterpoint.

Those 'white' bits are all areas where there is an angled overhang projecting from the boat bays.

Is it possible that the 'white' is actually still the same colour, but showing a reflection or lighting shift due to the angle?

NS

Hi Dick,

I'm impressed by the photos! Now I interpret another picture (from Wikipedia) with a different view:[attachment=0]HMS_Venerable_(R63)_underway_in_1945.jpg[/attachment]
I was not unfamiliar with white countershading in the RN, but hadn't learned yet it was also applied to carriers. But it makes very much sense indeed.

In most cases G45 seems the base colour. When Venerable was transfered to the Royal Netherlands Navy in May 1948 she was in overall G45 to my best knowledge, and remained in that scheme for several years at least. Note the temporary QL-1 pennant number:
[url]http://www.vlaggeschipsmaldeel5.nl/html/scheepsfoto_s_1.html[/url]
Note the button at the bottom of the page: there are 8 consecutive other pages with photos in the original configuration.
On this page the first arrival in the Netherlands, but several photos showing her as HMS Venerable - with the countershading!

[quote="SovereignHobbies"]..... I think it's just the table which has become messed up somehow.[/quote]

Looking at various of the painting guides I think the problem goes deeper than that. This is my take on the �modified� Standard Scheme A on these carriers in wartime.

The starting point is the basic Standard Scheme A: hull (and island) overall light grey G45 with a (darker) rectangular B20 hull panel.
[attachment=0]A & B - Copy.JPG[/attachment]

However on the light carriers onto this foundation were then applied very substantial areas of white countershading:
[attachment=4]Glory A28925 - Copy.jpg[/attachment]

From what I can see on-line the painting guides don�t seem to show these areas of white:
[attachment=3]Venerable instructions - Copy.jpg[/attachment]

With the areas that I think were white countershading at the bow and stern in particular depicted as G45, an extra intermediate colour (B30) has had to be invented (for the "end scallops"), with a tone between G45 and B20, to make the scheme �work� per what you seem to see in photos.

On Venerable herself the extensive white countershading areas on the hull including at the bow and stern can be seen in photos of her when on trials. She appears then to be in two dark colours so the extensive white countershaded areas therefore show up very clearly:
[attachment=2]Venerable trials.jpg[/attachment]
In service these extensive white countershaded areas were retained but the dark areas appear to have been overpainted much lighter. I don�t have many photos of her in service in this scheme and it is very hard to see a B20 hull panel in them so it is perhaps possible that Venerable was just light grey G45 with white countershading? Maybe others will have better photos that might answer this question?[attachment=1]Venerable 1945 7 24 said to be.jpg[/attachment]

[quote="Rick_H"]Thanks for the warning, Dick.

IHP shows colors on the profile and gives a table of color callouts to match the profile. It includes "Light grey", which is marked as Colourcvoats NARN21 which Sovreign describes as G10, and "Blue Gray B30", marked as NARN37. My eye for matching printed colors sucks, so I may have interpreted incorrectly.

By your reply, are you suggesting that I should have B30 for the overall grey with the B20 panel?[/quote]

Hi, I did help Mike with the first of his Colossus class paint guides a few years ago now but I'm pretty sure those call outs have been transposed from the lines which would have been beside them. I provided information for G10 and B30 at the time suggesting the former for the deck and the latter possibly for the modified Scheme A which shows lighter intermediate tones bracketing the darker B20 blue-grey panel from the latter's fore and aft edges sloping down to near the waterline at stem and stern.

The coloured drawing I provided back was in G45 light grey with B20 blue grey panel. I think it's just the table which has become messed up somehow.

Light Grey hull would be G-45 and B-20 panel

Thanks for the warning, Dick.

IHP shows colors on the profile and gives a table of color callouts to match the profile. It includes "Light grey", which is marked as Colourcvoats NARN21 which Sovreign describes as G10, and "Blue Gray B30", marked as NARN37. My eye for matching printed colors sucks, so I may have interpreted incorrectly.

By your reply, are you suggesting that I should have B30 for the overall grey with the B20 panel?

[quote="Rick_H"]I'm starting with G10 and B20 panel .....[/quote]

Do they really suggest a G10 (on the hull)?

I'm starting with G10 and B20 panel as described on the IHP color sheet, and adding white (or slightly off-white) for the countershading of the sponsons and fwd and aft overhang.

There are photos of all four ships of Aircraft Carrier Squadron 11, Colossus, Venerable, Vengeance and Glory, with that same countershading scheme, so I settled on Venerable as she was the flagship and that gives an excuse for one more detail to be shown.

Great detective work Darren!
[quote="Rick_H"]I think my first build will be Venerable, as deployed in 1945 for an absolutely out-of-the-box build,so I can use that interesting paint scheme with the white counter-shading.[/quote]
Rick,

What colors are you using, and do you have a good profile view of the camouflage?

[quote="DavidP"]Darren, your 1st picture is an angled deck because of the flight deck stripes, is possibly the Bonnie.[/quote]

I have to admit, I couldn't figure out which one carried a 'B' on the flight deck. At first I also thought Bonnie, but there are too many differences, like the lift shapes and aircraft.
Anywho, I finally figured it out, Bulwark. A Centaur class. So she shouldn't be included here.
I didn't think the deck extended far enough out to be included in the angle deck group, despite the paint job, but I suppose it could be.

[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Collossus%20LSO/1525_04_66.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.resinshipyard.com/pictures/Collossus%20LSO/1525_04_70.jpg[/img]

[quote="Rick_H"]Darren,
I am referring in general to the IHP straight deck Colossus class. I think the answers above reassure me that there wasn't a dedicated LSO platform before the angle deck modifications. I think my first build will be Venerable, as deployed in 1945 for an absolutely out-of-the-box build,so I can use that interesting paint scheme with the white countershading.
Thanks,
Rick[/quote]
From HMS Venerable in 1945 I know she was sent shortly after VJ day to Surabaya and then to Batavia (aka Jakarta later) for evacuating 'Europeans' (ie Dutch and British) and transporting hundreds of these them to Singapore. I believe the exact dates can be found. Three years later Venerable was sold to the Dutch to become the Karel Doorman. Maybe the war diary of Venerable can still be found somewhere.

Edit: after a brief search I found it [u]here[/u]: [url]https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-04CV-Venerable.htm[/url]