The Ship Model Forum

Test model Hms Resolution ww2

The [url=https://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/hms/royal-oak/350-RoyalOak_Trumpeter/Trumpeter350thRoyalOak.htm]Trumpeter 1/350 Royal Oak[/URL] review is live - I had meant to get a link to this thread and thanks to Dick and 81542 for their help into it but it was such a whirlwind to get it done in time for this month's reviews that I forgot and will be trying to amend it. For now, please accept my thanks here. :smallsmile:

Next up - what did I miss?

Hms Ramillies ww1 -resin model AJMMODESLS POLAND.

Tracy,

Re: Query about the presence of a 16ft Fast Motor Boat (aka "Skimmer" ?) onboard HMS ROYAL OAK.

"Pencilled In" can only mean that the boat was a projected addition to the ship's boat establishment: it doesn't mean that she actually received one.

There is a plan for ROYAL OAK in Raven and Roberts' book of plans for British Warships of the Second World War (no, not "British Battleships of World War II") but it does not show a 16ft FMB: the boat that is located in the position you describe is a 30ft Gig/Galley.

ROYAL OAK may have received a 16ft FMB, certainly HMS RESOLUTION had one in mid 1939 as the use of it is mentioned in the ship's Log. The boat must have come into service in the late 1930's. It did not go out until the late 1950/early 60's.

First resin castings of the Hms Ramillies ww1 hull in 1-700 scale.

OK, I spent the last week and a half going back and forth with the [URL=https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum]National Maritime Museum[/url] in Greenwich (more a factor in time difference between the UK and West coast of the US than any slowness on their part) and have now three digital copies of the upper deck (aft weather deck) forecastle deck (forward), shelter deck and platforms. I figured that since they have answered a good number of questions I have asked so far I would post some of the answers here. For now I have paid a license for personal use only and will not be posting snippets but I'm happy to answer questions people might have.

There are two kedge anchors labeled port and starboard at about Frame 140, which is just above what I'll describe as the aft-most forward facing 6" guns and just aft of the rear radial davit for the 32' life cutters when swung out over the edge of the deck. There is no notation as to which is 16 versus 12cwt so that is a mystery, although I'm not sure how much of a difference there may be.

Full-resolution confirms that my reading of the boats earlier was correct. There is a 16' Fast Motor boat penciled in just ahead and to port of X turret, but it is not inked as the other boats are and I'm not sure what this means.

I also received the Kagero plans book and the details of the kit and the book plans are almost 100% in agreement (Profile Morskie has some differences) and I am fairly certain that was the main source of their information.

I've a lot more looking and comparing to do. A copy of Raven & Roberts "British Battleships of WWII" has been ordered but is not due to arrive until late next week.

Thanks 81542 - that is helpful. If nothing else, it appears to show that the boat cradles that come with the Micromaster boats are suitable for use for the boats nestled in larger launches. It also supports that the entire shelter deck area around the boats and 4" guns was metal, which is what I suspect based on Dick's photos of the Royal Oak model.

Tracy,

I seem to have done something right! This might be of interest. It is a pic of the starboard side of the Shelter Deck of HMS RESOLUTION.
More images can be provided if wanted. Model is now the property of the IWM in London.

[attachment=0]Mr andrews_LoRes 011.jpg[/attachment]

Thanks, Timmy!

[quote=dick post_id=1087051 time=1763968475 user_id=2293]This slightly out of focus photo makes it clear how the Devonport model tackles the decks:[/quote]

Where's the dunce cap smiley? It did not occur to me at all to just scroll up and look at the model photos :doh_1:

Thanks for that - I shall endeavor to not waste your time any more.

[quote=81542 post_id=1087086 time=1763993881 user_id=193190]Volume 1 of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship (1937) reports that in addition to the bower and sheet anchors, the REVENGE Class (ROYAL SOVEREIGN if you wish) had 1 stream anchor of 60cwt and 2 Admiralty Pattern kedge anchors of 16 and 12cwt respectively. [/quote]

Well, Micromaster has a 60cwt Byers anchor in their [URL=https://micromaster.co.nz/collections/royal-navy-anchors/products/1-350-royal-navy-wasteney-smith-192cwt-x2-1x-60cwt-byers-anchors-hms-hood]Hood Anchors[/URL] set so maybe a couple of kedge anchors isn't too much of a dream. Looking things over, it's more than I'd want to try and scratch build at this point. I did some digging to see if I could see where the two kedge anchors are - the deck edge amidships makes logical sense to me given the proximity to various davits and boat handling in general, but I like to keep in mind Robert Heinlein's line "Logic is a method of making the wrong decision with confidence."

Page 148 of RA Burt "[i]British Battleships 1919-1945[/i]" has a port side shot of Royal Oak in 1925/26 that shows an anchor in the same spot as on the wreck. There is a starboard side shot on 182 that is small / distant enough for not enough detail to be visible through the halftone dots.

Looking at the other ships, the best I can do is a starboard side sketch of Royal Sovereign after her 1937/38 refit page on page 152 with the kedge anchor drawn in and a port side photo of Royal Sovereign 1928 pages 172/173 that show a kedge anchor there. With the decade in between the two shots it's hard to say that this is proof of anchors on both side. Something to keep an eye out for when I have more time.

With the davit broken off on the model Dick has posted photos of it's hard to say that the lack of an anchor means anything. However, if there were one on the starboard side I'd shut up and take it.....

Thanks again to the both of you for your time in answering my questions!

[quote=81542 post_id=1087086 time=1763993881 user_id=193190]

Further information concerning the finish of the Shelter Deck (of HMS RESOLUTION) will follow when I work out how to insert photographs!! Can someone help with a PM? Thanks!
[/quote]

See instructions here: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?t=1261

Mind, that's using the old board layout, but the the new one is only different in that you select the "Attachments" tab instead of the default "Options" tab below the message input window.

That said, the new board also supports the much simpler method of just dragging your image file from your desktop directly into the message input box. It won't show up immediately, but the Attachments tab below will show it as a new item.

Tracy,

Re: Paragraph 2 of your last post.

Volume 1 of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship (1937) reports that in addition to the bower and sheet anchors, the REVENGE Class (ROYAL SOVEREIGN if you wish) had 1 stream anchor of 60cwt and 2 Admiralty Pattern kedge anchors of 16 and 12cwt respectively. The "usual" position of the stream anchor was in the stern or stream anchor hawse pipe but this was not always so; as seems to be the case of ROYAL OAK. That lashed down on the Shelter Deck of ROYAL OAK and partly visible in Fig 117 of the Report can be determined to be one of the Byer's type. Of the two Admiralty Pattern anchors, there is definitely one stowed upright near the after davit of the port seaboat in Fig 139 (Incidentally, that picture seems to have been copied reversed indicating that it shows the starboard side!). I do not know where the other one was stowed but it was bound to be within reach of a derrick to lift it. I do not know what the weight of the visible anchor was.

Further information concerning the finish of the Shelter Deck (of HMS RESOLUTION) will follow when I work out how to insert photographs!! Can someone help with a PM? Thanks!

This slightly out of focus photo makes it clear how the Devonport model tackles the decks:


[attachment=0]Royal Oak model - Copy.jpg[/attachment]

Most of the (horizonal) shelter deck around the guns and under the boats is a dark neutral grey, not the slightly lighter Home fleet grey of the (vertical) surfaces of the hull and superstructure. But areas around the pom poms, base of mainmast and searchlight platforms etc are a milky brown colour. The obvious interpretation is that the dark neutral grey represents non-slip deck paint on a metal deck and the milky brown represents areas that were covered with corticene. Photos I have previously posted show these areas in more detail.

Trumpeter renders the entire shelter deck around the 4" QF AA guns and boats as planked, yet a photo on page 91 of the [url=https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/hms-royal-oak-80-survey-2018-2019/]2018-2019 Survey final report[/URL] shows the area around the starboard aft gun to be clearly a metal deck with bars welded down for some traction. I cannot find any photo of Royal Oak or her sisters that shows how much of this area might have been metal versus wood. The area between the two 50' Steam Pinnaces at the far right of this same photo appears to also be a dark metal deck. Page 92 of the same report shows a photo of the inverted deck and it is hard to say if it is wood that is disintegrating or metal - there are many spots in this area where the deck has corroded away for items from the Wardroom Pantry below the shelter deck to fall through and on to the seabed below. The Profile Morskie plans show this area to be planked, but their Exeter plans around B turret show how much we should trust their accuracy. I have a Kagero book on the way, but over a week out and the cover appears to show the shelter deck planked at least at the extreme aft end.

In the same vicinity - page 92 mentions and shows a spare anchor that was mounted on the shelter deck between and below the 50' pinnances and page 104 shows what looks like to be a similar anchor mounted deck edge outboard of the companion way. They are smaller than the main anchors and I am wondering if they were more sized so that a larger boat or launch could handle them in case an anchor needed to be dropped aft to prevent swinging. Does anyone know if this was a common size and design? They don't match what I see as available from Micromaster or Black Cat.

Sorry, I have probably not made myself clear.

Given B turret national markings, I suspect that the model depicts Royal Oak sometime 1936-1937. If it really was made by Devonport apprentices then she could have appeared like that August-September 1936 after she emerged from her refit at Devonport and was conducting trials and work-up but before she embarked an admiral in October. That would also be a logical time for the dockyard to have made a model of her. Not being anyone's flagship yet, no admiral's barge. We would need photographs to confirm.

But you are modelling Royal Oak as sunk. At that time she was a flagship and so would have had an admiral's barge so I think you are correct to be in "Camp Admiral's Barge".

[quote=dick post_id=1086503 time=1763567640 user_id=2293]The model is not flying the flag on any Admiral which may explain the absence on an Admiral's barge:[/quote]

Thank you very much for that - More than I would have expected!

81542 mentioned the Admiral and I had already ordered the "non Admiral's barge" 35' boat, but given the lack of Admiral's flag and non-admiral's barge, I am now inclined to order one given a sentence I had also seen on page 186 of the survey PDF that stated there were three vessels in the vicinity of R'yal Oak after she sank:

[quote]a covered Admiral’s gig that had floated off the quarter deck to which survivors clung with varying degrees of success.[/quote]

There are somewhat regular instances in the text of non-precise or erroneous statements so I wasn't sure how much I trusted it; but I'm now in "Camp Admiral's Barge."

Tracy,

These were the last set of peacetime painting instructions re boats (from AFO1711 of 22 June 1939):
[attachment=3]446 - Copy.JPG[/attachment]

Having looked again at my photos of the Devonport model of Royal Oak these are the colours I see on the boats:
[attachment=2]DSC_0015 - Copy - Copy.JPG[/attachment]

In terms of a date for the model these markings on B turret offer a clue:
[attachment=1]DSC_0018 - Copy.JPG[/attachment]

The model is not flying the flag on any Admiral which may explain the absence on an Admiral's barge:
[attachment=0]Royal Oak Plymouth model - Copy (2).jpg[/attachment]

Thanks Tracy,

You might like to know that the Imperial War Museum, London has a scale waterline model of HMS RESOLUTION in mid 1939 (Scale 1:192) in its collection that could prove a useful "R" Class reference.

Anything else and I'll send a PM.

[quote=81542 post_id=1086390 time=1763476909 user_id=193190]I hope this is of use?[/quote]

All information is of use, even if it doesn't immediately answer a question. :smallsmile: I also recognize that we won't know the answers to all questions and past a certain point each builder will have to make some form of educated guess. But you have indeed given me useful information for my notes and I think you again! EJ's site was an early hit to see what I could learn. I'm sort-of working on a good mega post with lots of information and links, such as to EJ's site and specific pages, the Black Cat and Micromaster pages for specific sets, etc.

Tracy,

To give you a "sort of answer" to your last paragraph: probably "yes" but. The last readily available information would be in Volume II of the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship (1932); which implied that local Fleet and Station Orders would lay down any restrictions on the colours of boats though ships were given a certain amount of latitude to follow their own tastes. Admirals barges, however, were exempt i.e. the admiral could do as he pleased as long as it did not clash with the scheme used for the C in C's barge!

From what I can tell from photographs, the boats of ships on the Home station in 1939, were all painted in the shade of paint applied to their parent ship; which was the grey in use (AP 507A) The larger "boom" boats in many cases seem to have had the bottom below the waterline painted white. Seaboats (the ones on the davits) were grey all over. HMS ROYAL OAK is likely to have followed suit. Admiral Blagrove's barge may have been in another scheme and if the Devonport Heritage Centre's model is near contempraneous with 1939 or was painted with someone having the necessary knowledge, one would not argue with the colours seen. One might argue with the type of barge shown though but proof as to what type of boat was actually being carried is currently lacking.

Whatever the case, because ROYAL OAK was sunk in mid 1939, it is unlikely that either she or her boats would have seen any changes in their colours schemes or in that of the ship any form of camouflage apart from the possibility of deception measures such as a false bow wave.

For your information though, have a look on EJ Foeth's "on the slipway" website: he has done a considerable amount of research into the ships' boats of the period and it is excellent, although I think he would admit that it is not yet exhaustive. I seem to recall that he also found a copy of the Admiralty Fleet Order giving instructions about the painting of boats but I could not find it when I last had a brief look: it may not have been published until 1940 though.

I hope this is of use?