The Ship Model Forum

by **jjb** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:34 am

I have Friedman's book and found it an excellent book. The pictures and drawings are not really of much use for modellers but it is not a book intended to be used as a modelling source, as an overview of the technical development of UK destroyer/frigate design however it is hard to see how it could be meaningfully improved and it is a great companion to David Brown's book on postwar British warship development.

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:22 pm

Good good, I've not touched mine for a while I got to chapter 3 as its difficult to read cover to cover a reference book that is a bit heavy going

by **Dave Wooley** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:14 pm

Hi Laurance just aquired my own copy of Norman Friedman's British Destroyers & Frigates for review .
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:48 pm

Dave, I know Ian I've spoken to him last year and he helped me with some of my research and also he put me onto a newer book of his which I ordered from Glasgow University.

These Wilson books only Volume 2 would interest me, perhaps in the future I'll get a hold of one.

Cheers

by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:27 pm

Lozza1981 wrote:Battleships in Action I certainly don't have, what is its coverage and format?

.

Just by way of interest Ian Buxton is a member of the World Ship Society and senior lecturer in Naval architecture at Newcastle University.
As for the Wilson books Voll 1 deals with the emergence of armoured ships, American Civil war through to European naval actions. Japan- China naval wars. American Spanish war, The protracted Russia �Japanese war leading of course to Tsushima and interestingly the long forgotten Pacific wars of the 1870s and the Italian � Turkish naval war of 1912. With the last chapter dealing with Battleship disasters.
I particularly find his summery of the Spanish American naval conflict recommended reading for any one with an interest in that period of naval History.
Voll 2 is devoted to WW1 The book opens with a in depth analysis of the pertinent factors surrounding the great naval powers in that conflict for example there is a discussion dealing with British and German gunnery, British armour, Rapidity of fire, and a thought provoking coverage of British shells. Heligoland is dealt with and a superb analysis of Coronel and the Falklands with references to such headings as "Sunk, Hits and damage�. Although all the major actions are dealt Jutland is covered in no less than three out of the 19 chapters.
The Mediterranean and the Dardanelles are seen through Wilson�s eye for detail Other subjects include the naval war in the Adriatic and more detailed analysis of subjects ranging from ASW "Changes in method of Blockade�, communications coastal forces "Admiralty reform programs�. Although to be fair since these books were first published in 1926 more information has come into the public domain but this does not detract from HW Wilson�s flair for making his books very readable. There are quite a number of maps, accurate line drawings and a good spread of interesting photographs.
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:10 am

Ah yeah Buxton's collection I knew about as he's northern (Newcastle)based and went to many of the scrapyards when the ships were being broken up.

He's put some in the 'to sail no more' series of which I have alll 7 books, and there's some in his Big Gun Monitors book.

Battleships in Action I certainly don't have, what is its coverage and format?

by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:55 am

Lozza1981 wrote:The John Young book again I'm not familar, and not sure what you mean about Dr Ian Buxton do you mean he cross-referenced many photo dates he found form this book?

The other reference books I've been using are the new 2005 reprints of 4 volumes of Captain Steven Roskill great work.

Ian Buxton has an extensive collection of pictures of warships being scraped in the 1960s, many on deck shots of WW2 vintage warships which he took himself . Yes Steven Roskill's mammoth piece of work is a must. I have the original edition, well thumbed but still one of my first ports of call. One of my treasured first editions is "Germany's High Sea Fleet in World War by Admiral Scheer published by Cassel and Co back in 1920. A very interesting if not slanted view of that period and of course Jutland. In fact I was told that you could down load this book from the net. But having the original is were I like to be. Incidentally if you can get yourself the two re-printed volumes of Wilson's Battleships in Action, you will not be disappointed.
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:34 am

Dear Dave, I have 2 Rowher books,

The behemoth reference book I have of his is this one below and I've used it extensively for my royal navy destroyer research so far. It has some problems like being a bit too German centric, but that is to be expected as thats the nationality of the author and he is mainly based close to sources in that country. Is this the same book you talk about?:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chronology-War- ... F8&s=books

The only difference mine being Chatham Press one. The 2rd book I have of his is a more picture chronology book of the war at sea and its a large H/B with a cruiser I think on the cover burning and sinking.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Sea-1939-19 ... F8&s=books

The John Young book again I'm not familar, and not sure what you mean about Dr Ian Buxton do you mean he cross-referenced many photo dates he found form this book?

The other reference books I've been using are the new 2005 reprints of 4 volumes of Captain Steven Roskill great work.

Cheers

by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:23 am

Laurence I agree , I must get the Battlecruiser book, as there is a gap in my library a book that once again is modeller friendly I would certainly recommend "Chronology of the War at Sea" if you don't already have this excellent two part series by Rohwer and Hummelchen This gives the dates of every single naval action, day by day and every ship involved accompanied by a brief resume of the action. Published by Ian Allen in 1972 SBN 7110 0277 0. The two volumes are still to be had especially in antiquarian maritime book outlets at civilized prices Combine this with the Dictionary of ships of the Royal Navy of the second World War. By John Young and you will need no others for identifying ships in their theatre of action . Also John Young�s book gives the eventual fate plus the name of the breakers yard and company, which is good for back tracking any photo references. Ian Buxton took thousands of pictures this way.
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:31 am

Dave Wooley wrote:
Lozza1981 wrote:[quoteDave I have the late Dr Oscar Parkes Battleship book if thats what you mean.

To answer your where is the next..... question, well I'm working on it chap.
Its considerably more difficult to write and have access to the material they did in the 50s/60s/70s. The positive is alot has become declassified since then too, but these things can't be rushed and research has to be fitted round my other activities.

I'd add John Roberts to your A-list and of course his most recent Battlecruisers book.
Laurence I have my Oscar Parkes Battleships in a safe place. Your project sounds very interesting I look forward to our meeting at Telford. Yes I missed John Roberts Battlecruisers. I have his companion publication British Warships of the Second World War, which is very modeller friendly. On the re-printed "A" list is HW Wilson�s two Vol Battleships in Action. Mine are the re-printed version published by Conway's but I searched hard for the originals never got a sniff. Apparently the 1948 Jane's is the holy grail very few of that year were ever printed due to fire damage at the publishers. Regarding availability of material you are quite right it's swings and roundabouts. As you said much has been declassified but photographic material {UK} seems to have become surrounded by a wall of bureaucracy.
Dave Wooley

There are ways around British photographic barriers

I'm not familar with H W Wilson's 2 volume work Battleships In Action can you let me know more please?

Also I beg you buy John Roberts Battlecruisers book I've seen it for as low as �6 brand new, try Amazon its a must have.

by **Dave Wooley** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:02 am

Lozza1981 wrote:[quoteDave I have the late Dr Oscar Parkes Battleship book if thats what you mean.

To answer your where is the next..... question, well I'm working on it chap.
Its considerably more difficult to write and have access to the material they did in the 50s/60s/70s. The positive is alot has become declassified since then too, but these things can't be rushed and research has to be fitted round my other activities.

I'd add John Roberts to your A-list and of course his most recent Battlecruisers book.

Laurence I have my Oscar Parkes Battleships in a safe place. Your project sounds very interesting I look forward to our meeting at Telford. Yes I missed John Roberts Battlecruisers. I have his companion publication British Warships of the Second World War, which is very modeller friendly. On the re-printed "A" list is HW Wilson�s two Vol Battleships in Action. Mine are the re-printed version published by Conway's but I searched hard for the originals never got a sniff. Apparently the 1948 Jane's is the holy grail very few of that year were ever printed due to fire damage at the publishers. Regarding availability of material you are quite right it's swings and roundabouts. As you said much has been declassified but photographic material {UK} seems to have become surrounded by a wall of bureaucracy.
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:58 pm

Dave Wooley wrote:The inflated prices I see for some books like Edger March's only reflects the kind of market or lack of market that allows books of high quality to be sold on at inflated prices. What will happen when the likes of Friedman, Whitley, Langtree cease writing altogether, were are the next generation. For example David Lyon�s The First Destroyers is a must for any aficionado of early destroyers in the RN and unlike many of the books mentioned is a modeller friendly publication but who is qualified to add to the knowledge of that period. Were is the next Dunlin and Grazke for US battleships which after 30years remains on my �A� list. Equally an A lister but less well known is Malcolm Muir's The Capitol ship program in the United States Navy 1934-1945. All out of print excepting First destroyers. Any one got an Oscar Parks locked away in their vault?
Dave Wooley

Dave I have the late Dr Oscar Parkes Battleship book if thats what you mean.

To answer your where is the next..... question, well I'm working on it chap.
Its considerably more difficult to write and have access to the material they did in the 50s/60s/70s. The positive is alot has become declassified since then too, but these things can't be rushed and research has to be fitted round my other activities.

I'd add John Roberts to your A-list and of course his most recent Battlecruisers book.

by **Dave Wooley** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:45 pm

The inflated prices I see for some books like Edger March's only reflects the kind of market or lack of market that allows books of high quality to be sold on at inflated prices. What will happen when the likes of Friedman, Whitley, Langtree cease writing altogether, were are the next generation. For example David Lyon�s The First Destroyers is a must for any aficionado of early destroyers in the RN and unlike many of the books mentioned is a modeller friendly publication but who is qualified to add to the knowledge of that period. Were is the next Dunlin and Grazke for US battleships which after 30years remains on my �A� list. Equally an A lister but less well known is Malcolm Muir's The Capitol ship program in the United States Navy 1934-1945. All out of print excepting First destroyers. Any one got an Oscar Parks locked away in their vault?
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:24 am

RNfanDan wrote:The "bible" on this subject remains Edgar March's book but, as has already been addressed, it is not a modern book and can be very hard to find.

I have an extensive interest in British destroyers, particularly those from Amazon forward thru the "alphabeticals" up to about the P-Q-R classes of WW2. Beyond that point, there seems a goodly amount of information available, and the later classes quickly lose their appeal (for me, at any rate).

My "substitute" for a single comprehensive volume (lacking March's book) are the three John English volumes including his excellent The Hunts, Chris Langtree's The Kellys, and Whitley's Destroyers of World War Two. I'd like to acquire more material on the L-R classes, but of course without Friedman's "prequel" companion to his new release, March's volume will be difficult to top.

Finally I have also, TD Manning's equally-vintage (but still within my lifetime) The British Destroyer, and while not being as comprehensive as March, Manning does give a thorough overview of the long and interesting history of British destroyers. I can only hope that Friedman's prequel will appear sometime in the future, but with the apparently-tepid new release, I don't feel it will be followed-on anytime soon.

Having already tapped resources as distant as South Africa and Australia to find good material on British destroyers, I'll just keep digging-around until I can secure a copy of March's book, even if I must make sacrifices to Scrooge this year!

Dan it reguarly comes up on eBay usually around �100, what is your price limit m8?

I agree it is still the bible.

by **Rob** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:09 am

Dan, I saw a copy of March's book a few weeks ago. Price was �250.00

If you want, I will look out the contact info for the shop.

Cheers,

Rob

by **RNfanDan** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:42 pm

The "bible" on this subject remains Edgar March's book but, as has already been addressed, it is not a modern book and can be very hard to find.

I have an extensive interest in British destroyers, particularly those from Amazon forward thru the "alphabeticals" up to about the P-Q-R classes of WW2. Beyond that point, there seems a goodly amount of information available, and the later classes quickly lose their appeal (for me, at any rate).

My "substitute" for a single comprehensive volume (lacking March's book) are the three John English volumes including his excellent The Hunts, Chris Langtree's The Kellys, and Whitley's Destroyers of World War Two. I'd like to acquire more material on the L-R classes, but of course without Friedman's "prequel" companion to his new release, March's volume will be difficult to top.

Finally I have also, TD Manning's equally-vintage (but still within my lifetime) The British Destroyer, and while not being as comprehensive as March, Manning does give a thorough overview of the long and interesting history of British destroyers. I can only hope that Friedman's prequel will appear sometime in the future, but with the apparently-tepid new release, I don't feel it will be followed-on anytime soon.

Having already tapped resources as distant as South Africa and Australia to find good material on British destroyers, I'll just keep digging-around until I can secure a copy of March's book, even if I must make sacrifices to Scrooge this year!

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:01 pm

Ok cheers, Im sure well have a rewarding discussion, will you be there all weekend like me?

by **Dave Wooley** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:46 pm

Laurence I would like very much to discuss this further and I would think Telford ideal. I must confess I have not trawled through every page with the eye of a proof reader so I cannot make a judgement based on that experience. Perhaps I need to be more critical. However Norman Friedman has a particular style which comes through on all his books and I find it very difficult to try to compare Christopher Langrtrees Kelly's with Friedman�s book, it's a bit like comparing apples and pears. Non-the less I take your point and look forward to any further discussion on this subject.
Dave Wooley

by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Dear David,

We can have a good chat over this at Telford if you wish

Briefly I hoped for something that remedied the problems with March's 40 year old seminal work, and presented itself in the Raven & Roberts mould with much better wartime coverage.

The Kelly's by Christopher Langtree I consider more valuable at present than this Volume 2 from Professor Norman Friedman.

I am not alone John Roberts has mentioned to me some serious errors he has noticed and Dr Eric Grove's review of it in the latest Navy New's found a lot of post-war historical mistakes which would have been picked up if he, Grove, had been given a copy to proof read or the author in question had spent more time in the archives in the UK or had looked closer at what Groves had already published.

Apart from all the above its still worth buying, it just isn't as good as it should be from someone at least in the USA who is considered THE naval author!

by **Dave Wooley** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:31 pm

Lozza1981 wrote:Someone is selling their copy already!!! It says New but no way could they be selling soo low and make money so I wonder is this is someone who was dissapointed?[/url]

Lozza I know that you are critical of Norman Friedmans book "British destroyer and Frigates of the second World War". But what would you have wanted ? and can you name a better publication dealing with the same subject ?. Just interested.
Dave Wooley

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