The Ship Model Forum

NucSub wrote:How much was incompetence vs pushing the technology of the time beyond the limits of complexity to achieve a goal of an ideal submarine as considered at the time?

Those were times of experiences. The submarine was a recent weapon that had just proved or was in process of doing so along WWI. The M, K and X class are examples of what the Royal Navy was up to regarding new uses or doctrines for submarine warfare. Apart from the minelaying and aircraft carrying capability I find of little use if not useless or dangerous at all the remaining prototypes but then they had to build them and test them and in some cases loose them to make sure that the case did not work well.

If any of you are interested in a bit of light WWI Naval reading then see the trading section.
You will see my post as I'm selling 4 rare 1970 magazines all on naval topics in WWI.
Cheers

Have you read the book called 'K-Boats' by Don Everitt...?

That is simply the most astonishing tale of mistake, incompetence and clinging to blind hope!



Read the book several times. How much was incompetence vs pushing the technology of the time beyond the limits of complexity to achieve a goal of an ideal submarine as considered at the time?
20/20 hindsight shows the flaws in the thinking quite well but, the history of the K boats was only a short couple of years.
V/R, NucSub

Werner wrote:

>>I think The Battle of May Island deserves a modern write-up.<<


Have you read the book called 'K-Boats' by Don Everitt...?

That is simply the most astonishing tale of mistake, incompetence and clinging to blind hope!

The 'Battle of May Island' is well described therein.!!

Cheers

Jim Baumann[/quote]

Laurence,
Yes, I agree on that point. As an example, I bought a copy of Commander Stephen King-Hall's "A North Sea Diary 1914-16" from a book dealer many years ago. A nice copy, considering the age. Then years later I found another copy in a London Bookstore and it was the 1st edition published 1919. My own edition was a second printing. Big difference between them. Ist edition was more solid, better paper and dozens of interesting photos. A number of post Jutland battle damage photos of Southampton that I have never seen before. A real treasure that original volume! The reprint had no photos what so ever.
I bought the 1st edition and plan to put my second edition on ebay some day. 1st editions are most often best as you say

Bob B.

I always recommend, if money allows, to always buy 1st-edition Hardbacks

Often they are the most expensive, rare and sometimes tatty, but normally they have the best photographic quality and are the versions which hold their value best.

Maybe ask each bookseller Bob to give you a detailed description of each book?
Number of pages, number of illustrations, number of maps etc.
I normally do this when I'm torn between 2 online vendors with 2 different versions of the same/similar book.

Buy both - sell one of them.

bengtsson wrote:I guess Bacon's book was printed in two versions. His original was two volumes. In 1932 a new volume was printed which was updated and combined into one volume. "The Concise History of the Dover Patrol".
Which one to buy??? The word Concise scares me, would some of the detail be lost in a concise version I wonder. Updated would be good though, as the original book was written just after the shooting stopped.


Bob B.

I guess Bacon's book was printed in two versions. His original was two volumes. In 1932 a new volume was printed which was updated and combined into one volume. "The Concise History of the Dover Patrol".
Which one to buy??? The word Concise scares me, would some of the detail be lost in a concise version I wonder. Updated would be good though, as the original book was written just after the shooting stopped.


Bob B.

I visited the Honolulu main library today to look for the book. Although I remember seeing it there probably 20 years ago, it is no longer in the collection. Like Laurence, I now have the book on my books to buy list as ar has recommended it.

Well that is by choice ar, you could have easily done one of your books as a thesis and had it part sponsored.

Correction I have the 1st degree and am near to achieving the 2nd.

Dover Patrol is on the 'to buy' list, I might put it on my birthday list also.

How was Glorious?

So you have or are gettinng TWO degrees! And I have none.
You and everybody else should read Dover Petrol By Bacon.

]

Laurence Batchelor wrote:Those of you who know me, know I've been studying the Coventry Ordnance Works for sometime as part of my 2nd degree at University.

A lot of what is written about this important naval gun firm comes from the famous Admiral Reginald Bacon. He was the first Captain of Dreadnought and also the officer who Fisher got to introduce the submarine into the RN. He was also responsible for the early airships and can be considered from the period 1900-1910 as perhaps the most technically minded high ranking officer in the Royal Navy. He was also Director Naval Ordnance for a while, but left the Admiralty in 1910 to become Managing Director of the Coventry Ordnance Works with a huge salary. Later on in the War he would get back his commission and gain fame as the Admiral in charge of the Dover Patrol. He was also a prolific naval author.

Well this edited qoute from him made me chuckle today and I thought some here might enjoy it also. Bacon recalls a visit to the Admiralty in the early 1900s of a posse of Armstrongs' directors, who claimed that they had been treated unfairly following the award of a major 13.5-inch gun contract to Messrs Vickers:

The interview was not a great success...The chairman was well advanced in years, and so also were the remainder of the deputation. Two were very deaf, and the eyes of one were so feeble that he was unable to sit facing the light....The mental note I made was that when sending deputations one should avoid choosing old fossils!

From 1900 Onward (1940) Sir R. Bacon.

I think The Battle of May Island deserves a modern write-up.

Here's a more complete account of the Aug. 16th action according to the author:

On Aug 16th we had our first brush with the enemy, and our flotilla recieved a sample of German gunnery which our own gunners acknowledged was excellent. We were on our usual Dutch coast patrol, known as the 'broad fourteens' and were somewhere off the mouth of the river Elbe off the German coast. At daybreak we chased a German collier and made contact with a powerful armoured crusier, which opened fire on us with 8.2 inch guns. Our heaviest gun was four-inch, so the enemy easily outranged us, and straddled us with her accurate salvo firing. The Goshawk and Phoenix were disabled, and shells were ricochetting over us. Fearless led us in a determined attack to close with torpedos, but the large German Cruiser foiled our intentions by running for home, and we did not blame her. We were very disappointed, however at not being able to equalise matters with the third flotilla, but the Yorch or Roon or whichever ship it may have been was too near home for us to follow, and we left the vicinity after the Goshawk and Phoenix had patched up their wounds.

Early in Jan. 1915 the first flotilla was assigned fresh duty. Harwich was still home port, but the flotilla began to act as submarine screen for the Battle Cruisers. On March 17th the flotilla was transfered to the Forth to be nearer the BCs.


This Aug. 16th action must have been just a minor exchange of fire and a rapid exit by the German ship. Perhaps the two British destroyers just got some splinter damage. Not an action that would be considered worthy of a lot of press coverage. But it interested me. I have cross checked the authors accounts of the actions he was in, and they all check out as accurate and he always gives RN ship names and times and dates in hi accounts. So I feel he is a reliable source. If nothing else, from his writting style, I have to say this RN Stoker was one of the most intelligent and articulate Stokers to ever heave coal into a Royal navy boiler!

Bob B.

Have these fossils never heard of the adage that the customer is always right?

Bob:

Goshawk, Hind and Phoenix were all members of the Acheron class.

They were in 1st Flotilla 1911 onwards, then served in Grand Fleet 1914-16 before serving with the the 3rd Battle Squadron.

http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/w ... sp?id=3488

The earliest action I was aware of in the Broad Fourteens was the loss of Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue in September 1914.

If a DKM armoured cruisr, I would guess at a Victoria Luise-class as they served briefly as coast defence ships in 1914.

Cheers,
Rob

I've not read Bacon's Dover Patrol books, however I have read his 2 volumes on his own career, his book on Jellicoe, the Jutland Scandal and Britain's Glorious Navy etc.

I've always found his books entertaining and often with good scientific insight. As I mentioned before he was very technically minded and published work on all sorts of things. He also, in his day, was perhaps the Highest Ranking Royal Naval officer who wrote the most about his colleagues and the things he saw around him, sometimes making enemies of course.

Just be aware his work isn't too self critical and also he sometimes is a bit too attached to some things he writes about, but then again most of us are infallible humans after all. We are not objective and find it hard to write history in a balanced fashion. I've never found his books cheaply so if you go for his Dover one, I think its like �30 upwards!

Can't help you with the 2nd question I'm afriad Bob, that early in the war is poorly documented, but possibly the damage reports might be in the National Archives.

On a little different subject, but Lawrence's post and the question about the Dover Patrol book bring this other book to mind.

I am in the midst of my second reading of a really unique book of Royal Navy history. It's title is "Aye, Aye, Sir, a saga of the lower deck" by Clinker Knocker [not his real name of course!]. Published 1938 by Rich & Cowan Ltd. London.

The author who's real name I do not know, enlisted as an ordinary stoker a few years before WWI broke out. He had a few years as a merchant cabin boy and cooks helper before joining the RN. If you want a real insight into the real life in the Royal Navy of pre and WWI era, this book is the ticket! Clinker is a great story teller, and there is never a dull moment as Clinker and his pals were real "birds" {RN slang for trouble makers}. The discription of lower deck life on HMS St. Vincent is unique in naval literature and he goes on to Destroyer service during the war. Seeing action at the Helgoland Bight in HMS Hind. He can tell a story like no ordinary enlisted man I've ever read before.
I expect it might be found with a used book search. I had to pay a huge sum for my copy, but never regreted the expense.

Now I have a question for anyone who really knows their RN history. In his book, Clinker claims to have been in a short action on Aug 16th 1914. Being on patrol that day off of the Dutch coast in what they called "the broad fourteens". Somewhere off of the Elbe at daybreak he claims their force chased a German collier. This chase brought them into contact with a German Armoured Cruiser. In a short action he mentions some damage to HMS Goshawk and Phoenix. It all ended quickly when the German Cruiser retired. I can't find this action mentioned in my other books. Can anyone confirm an action like this and what if any damage the two RN destroyers recieved??

Bob B.

Bacon's book "The Dover Patrol 1915-17" came in two volumes I believe. Published 1919 by Hutchinson & Co.

Although I am an avid collector of Royal Navy history books from the inter war period, I have never gone ahead and purchased these two volumes of his. I wonder if anyone can tell us about them as works of history?? I always like first hand accounts of Naval Warfare, but they must always be taken as one man's view and not definitive histories. But I find they make wonderful reading.

Another really first rate book was published about the Dover patrol recently. That would be: "The Dover Patrol 1914-18" by Roy Humphreys. Published 1998 by Sutton Publishing
I highly recommend it for it's complete history and many photos and illustrations. A must have for RN First World war fans.

On another note, during my visit to the IWM Photo section a year and a half ago, I came across a farily large number of first rate photos taken in and outside Dover harbour late in WWI. Mainly the trawlers and drifters and their crews. But some fine views of Dover harbour. Wouldn't mind having some in my collection. If the dollar ever rises again against the pound

Nice quote Laurence! Send in the Fossils!

Bob B.

There was a book about the Dover Patrol. Any idea as to how informative/readable it was?

One thing i love about the British is the words they choose. When they choose to insult someone its usually pretty polite and proper....hehe.