The Ship Model Forum

Yeah, I can tell by the number of posts you have :thumbs_up_1:

[quote="Tracy White"]My attention span isn't millions of years long [/quote]
Mine is. In fact, I can barely notice a million years.

My attention span isn't millions of years long :big_grin:

Hey, if that battle of the ants called naval conflict absorbs you more than the grandeur and majesty of geology....

:big_grin: :big_grin: :big_grin:

Yeah, for the thrilling action of plate tectonics...

[quote="Tracy White"]

It's like anything else, the "sexy" stuff gets more press. Auxiliaries were critical to the war effort but how many "Oiler Squadron Commander!" biographies do you see?[/quote]


You see the biography of Captain Harry Hess of the troop transport USS Cape Johnson (APS-172) quite often. In fact I suspect his name would be remembered longer across more of the world most fighting admirals of WWII.


:big_grin: :big_grin: :big_grin:

[quote="ar"]Have not the aircraft bods written up and published on this extremly vital aspect of Fleet Defence some where, surely? I mean, there are a million books on aircraft, so there must be something, somewhere?[/quote]

It's like anything else, the "sexy" stuff gets more press. Auxiliaries were critical to the war effort but how many "Oiler Squadron Commander!" biographies do you see?

[url=http://www.acepilots.com/planes/avenger.html]Pages on the Avenger[/url] just mention the -3W on the version list with no description as to its service, for them, it's as if the aircraft's history stopped in August of 1945.

There may be a $60 tome that goes more in-depth but it's less likely to be on someone's shelf. I've got the "in action," "Walkaround" and "Avenger Aces of the Pacific" type of books but nothing more than that.

Yes, the flyboys have, but they find such things as links to consoles aboard ship very boring. Look for some of the others, like DASH and LAMPS if you disbelieve me.

Re the last two notes.
Have not the aircraft bods written up and published on this extremly vital aspect of Fleet Defence some where, surely? I mean, there are a million books on aircraft, so there must be something, somewhere?

Project Cadillac was a "joint" anglo-US (i.e. the US did most of it) for airborne early warning. There are various operations Research papers in the TNA:PRO showing some of the theoretical work (with trials info) that went into assessing the possible usefulness of the system and tactics (both defensive and attacking).

I didn't think it was actually used during WW2 (?)

It wasn't the first AEW.

Their were trials in 1942/43 of using H2S in various configurations (not very successfully) and then in late 1944 a Wellington was outfitted as what would be called an AWACS to be used over the North Sea with Mosquito nightfighters to counter air-dropped V-1s (Operation Vapour{?}). It wasn't operationally available until 1945 and its first operational sortie was the night after the last V-1 air-drop (!)

TBM-3W would also be the APS 20 carrier of the "Hunter-Killer" ASW pair (3S & 3W) postwar.

There ought to be some in California at the Fleet Airborne Electronics Training Unit (FAETU).

USS [i]Ranger[/i] (CV-4), recently returned from delivering aircraft to allied forces in Casablanca, entered Norfolk Naval Shipyard 17 May 1945 for a six-week overhaul, during which a CIC and the Cadillac equipment were installed (This is where to look for our Cadillac datalink antenna, in the final fit of [i]Ranger[/i]). Underway again in July, she arrived at North Island on July 25th where she loaded aboard her airwing. This airwing was different from the conventional wing in that it included several developmental concepts; among these were the Cadillac configured TBM-3Ws and the Night Air Combat Training Unit from Barber�s Point. By August 1945 she was in Hawaiian waters conducting final CQ prior to leaving for Japanese waters when the war ended.

With the end of the war, Cadillac was almost, but not quite completed. While the carrier-based component did not have a chance to prove itself in combat, the utility of carrier-based AEW was so clear and its applications so far ranging in impact that further development and deployment would continue post-war, with deployments on [i]Enterprise[/i] and [i]Bunker Hill[/i]. In addition to the carrier-based component, a second development was begun under Cadillac II for a more robust airborne capability.

(I would love to read about the post-war deployments of [i]Enterprise[/i] and [i]Bunker Hill[/i]. Most accounts imply neither ship flew aircraft even though the photos of [i]Enterprise[/i] in the Panama Canal show aircraft in the hangar and the winter 1945 photos of [i]Bunker Hill[/i] show snow swirling among parked planes while she sits at either New York or Boston.)

Yes, that was my goof; I meant to explain it but got so wrapped up in doing it that I ran out of time to finish it before having to head home.

That is an extract from the Navy index of aircraft dated September 7, 1945, showing all CVG groups that could have possibly been attached to Essex-class carriers. I looked at all of the aircraft in the pacific theater and listed the groups (not squadrons) and types of avengers attached to each. Mostly they were in VT squadrons, but I was looking for oddballs, such as the way night fighter squadrons were broken up amongst different ships earlier in the war. It lists group, location(s, some air groups were spread out), and type of aircraft listed as assigned. Location could be important; if we find one squadron on the east coast with them it's safe to say they never made it out; If we don't find any mention and know that the aircraft flew in March of 1945, then we can probably say they didn't list it there for security or other reasons.

Atlantic Theater:
CVG-3 Oceana: TBM-3E
CVG-4 Groton/Wildwood: TBF-1C/3E
CVG-20 Edenton: TBM-3E
CVGN 53 Quonset, reforming, no aircract
CVBG-74 Ayer/Otis Fields: No TBF/M assigned
CVBG-75 Chincoteague: No TBF/M assigned
CVG-81 Atlantic City/Sanford/Wildwood: TBF-1C/3E
CVGN 90 Quonset, reforming, no aircract
CVG-97 Grosse Ile/Quonset/Sanford: TBF-1/1C/3E
CVG-150 Lake Champlain: TBM-3E
CVG-153 Oceana: TBM-3E
NACTU Atlantic Boca Chica/Marthas Vineyard: TBM-3E


Ahhhhhh here we go.
Under the Miscellaneous section ASDEVLANT
Avengers present at Quonset:
1 TBM-1
2 TBM-3
1 TBM-3W
1 TBM-3D

So, the Navy lists one TBM-3W in its inventory in September. Ranger is listed as in the Pacific at that time, but at San Diego with no aircraft present. The same goes for August and July, when I quickly scan for just those two data points.

Not quite certain what the list means.
I would have thought that one would need a list of what ships carried the Cadillac Avengers and at what times.

[quote="ar"]If you would please.
Additionally, could one of the aircraft persons look at a good book on the Avenger to see what there might be on the system, when it came into use, and on what ships during the war.[/quote]

The radar used was the APS-20 on TBM-3W version Avengers. I can find:

CVG-1 Bennington: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-2 Enroute, no aircraft assigned
CVG-5 Klamath Falls, OR: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-6 Hancock: TBM-3E
CVG-7 Astoria OR: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-8 Saipan: No aircraft assigned
CVG-9 Alameda CA: No aircraft assigned
CVG-10 Intrepid: TBM-3E
CVG-11 Santa Rosa CA: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-12 Seattle WA: No aircraft assigned
CVG-13 Puunene T.H. (Territory of Hawaii): TBM-3E
CVG-14 Kahului T.H.: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-15 Los Alamitos CA: TBM-3E
CVG-16 Randolph: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-17 Alameda CA: No aircraft assigned
CVG-18 San Diego CA: TBM-3E
CVG-19 Kahului T.H.: TBM-3 & 3E
CVGN-52 Barbers Point T.H. TBM-3E
CVGN-55 Barbers Point T.H. TBM-3E
CVG-80 Ream/NAAS Holtville, CA: TBM-3E
CVG-82 Alameda CA: No aircraft assigned
CVG-83 Essex: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-84 Holtville/Los Alamitos: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-85 Shangri-La: TBM-3
CVG-86 Eniwetok: TBM-3E
CVG-87 Ticonderoga: TBM-3E
CVG-88 Yorktown: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-89 Antietam: TBM-3E
CVGN-91 Bon Homme Richard: TBM-3E
CVG-92 Saipan TBM-3/3PE/3P
CVG-93 Boxer TBM-3E
CVG-94 Lexington:TBM-3E
CVG-95 Hilo T.H.: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-98 Los Alamitos/San Diego/Thermal/Ventura: TBM-1/1C/3/3E
CVG-99 Saipan: TBM-3/3D/3E
CVG-100 Barbers Point, T.H.: TBM-3 & 3E
CVG-151 Corvallis: TBM-1C/3/3E
CVG-152 Brown Field: TBM-3 & 3E
NACTU Pacific (Night Attack Combat Training Unit): TBF/M-1C/1D/3/3D/3E

No mention of TBM-3Ws in any of the CVE or CVL groups.
None in the VC squadrons
None in any of the USMC listings.
None in the CASUs (Carrier Air Service Units... esentially maintenance depots)

There are 93 "VTB" in "pool" at Alameda, 39 at Eniwetok, 148 at Guam, 8 on Okinawa, 200 at Pearl Harbor, 24 at Roi, 110 at Samar, and 303 at San Diego. No variant info is listed but I doubt they'd really have any of consequence in pool for such a new version.

That's the Pacific Fleet. I'll do the Atlantic when I get home.

[quote="Tracy White"]Alan, I noted in some of the text that I came across a claim that early radars (such as the SC) had the BL separate, but that the SC-2 had it integrated. At that point, there was so much contradictory info that I just made a note as something to look into, but that does jibe a bit with what you've posted. One of the sites I found that on was [url=http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-1.htm]NHC's "Shipborne Search Sets"[/url]. Note the SC section, "[i]SC-2 and SC-3 also have PPI scopes, remote PPI's, and built-in BL and BI* antennas[/i]."
[/quote]
The SC2-4 range had the IFF antennas hung on the face of the IFF reflector screen attached across the top of the large main radar antenna.
SC and SC1, I believe, had to have (when fitted) , the IFF antenna placed away from the reflector, probably due to the light construction of the SC framework.

I'd be interested... one more detail I can keep my eyes open for... :eyes_spinning:

If you would please.
Additionally, could one of the aircraft persons look at a good book on the Avenger to see what there might be on the system, when it came into use, and on what ships during the war.

Mr. WR is referring to the Cadillac [b]data link antenna[/b], which receives essentially a TV image of the airborne APS 20's Radar image for a repeater console aboard ship.

It was not a sensor, or even a critical part of the system, but it was an important one, and it's antenna would feature on many ships in the 1945-55 timeframe which corresponds to the APS 20 system.

If anyone is still curious, I will go through my copy of [i]Shipboard Antennas[/i] for particulars on size, shape and placement.

Alan, I noted in some of the text that I came across a claim that early radars (such as the SC) had the BL separate, but that the SC-2 had it integrated. At that point, there was so much contradictory info that I just made a note as something to look into, but that does jibe a bit with what you've posted. One of the sites I found that on was [url=http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-1.htm]NHC's "Shipborne Search Sets"[/url]. Note the SC section, "[i]SC-2 and SC-3 also have PPI scopes, remote PPI's, and built-in BL and BI* antennas[/i]."

Werner may be re-adding a question here I accidentally lost, but since we may be requesting that you bug Mr. Friedman, I would ask if he has any recollection of the approximate time the Essex class received the antennaes as the documents for the aircraft and system in general I've found don't seem to match the shipboard sets.

[quote="Tracy White"]There is a lot of confusion and contradictory information out there in regards to radar, as you well know. I haven't been able to purchase Friedman's radar book as of yet, but it is on my radar, so to speak. :eyebrows:

Speaking of Wikipedia, [url=http://veropedia.com/docs/faq.php]this may be of interest[/url].[/quote]

I have spoken to Norman Friedman who related the following on Cadillac.

The Cadillac equipted aircraft has to identify the Cadillac equipted ship before sending the data, this in order to ensure that the correct vessel is being targeted for the data.
Identification of the correct ship is achieved by sending a special interrogator code to the ship so fitted with Cadillac. Upon receipt of the correct response from the carrier, the aircraft then will send the radar data to the ship. The data is received by the lower part of the antenna.
Therefore, one part of the antenna on the ship functions as a transponder, while the other part receives the data which is displayed on a repeater screen in the CIC. THis allows direction of friendly fighters onto low flying enemy aircraft, which would otherwise not be detected until much closer to the Fleet.
He tells me that Cadillac at the time of introduction was top secret and did not appear in manuals marked only as "confidential".
I mentioned the labelling of the antenna on the Randolph as being Cadillac, his response was, "that is definative".

PS note that the BL IFF (stovepipe type) antenna shown in the confidential manual is different to that fitted on the Radolph.

Let me hear from you.