The Ship Model Forum

No, What I saw was a regional archives branch. It contains (amongst other things) records for the Commandant of the 13th Naval District, Pacific Northwest. Com13 didn't receive anything on the atlantic fleet unless it was to be used for comparison.

Looking over my notes (of which I lost one research session of, so this may not be complete with what I've seen or what is at the archives) I remember now that there were a couple of BIG pieces and then monthly/quarter reports of JUST THE CHANGES, with instructions for adds and removes. I think it was just for Pacific Fleet though, not the whole fleet.

There you go. It's all there, what ships were in which division/group/squadron and when, and...... on a monthly basis. Could not be better.
The USN version of the RN Pink lists.

So noted.

I'll have to look Alan, I've seen such a list (or lists) at Seattle NARA but I do not remember the dates. It was a 90-some-odd page document, so I never seriously considered scanning and converting it. Text is OK, but 90+ pages of tables would drive me mad!

In my last post I was referring to Mr Hert doing some small research, not Mr Arroyo who I have known for over a quarter of a Century.
After thinking about the matter, I remembered seeing (what I call) the assignment sheets. Similar to the RNs Pink lists, and published every month I believe. I know these exist because I had two sets, one dated December 1941 and the other dated June 1945. They contain the make-up of every division and squadron in the navy. These must have been published on a monthly basis, as the Pink lists were.
I don't have these documents anymore, having passed them over to a person who is writing a volume on USN camouflage in WW11.
A call to Naval Historical in DC by Mr Hert should produce some results.
To Mr Hert;this is the section where a question can be given a detailed answer and discussion. Do not be put out by the replies you are getting.

PS Admiral King was replaced as CinC Atlantic right after Pearl Harbor.

Alan, he's a Pearl Harbor researcher. I asked him to answer Sean's question as he's been forthcoming with answers before and is quite knowledgable regarding the attack and its aftermath.

You lack e-mail, I suspect, to keep people from hounding you for help on their projects. Lord knows enough people have offered help. I think it a bit rude under the circumstances to take an answer and almost demand the author do more work. If this were an institute of higher learning or training for Army Special Forces I could see it..... but a lot of the experts who weigh in here have other things they could be doing.

I chose the three dates as being pertinent. The man may wish to have different ones looked at. Either way, it will be an interesting exercise for him, and when done, we will all know more than now.

Alan,

You are asking for Order-of-Battle for the USN on three specific dates. There are listings of the Order-of-Battle for the USN in both the Atlantic and Pacific on 7 December 1941 ... even available on-line. I'm not aware of seeing a published listing of Order-of-Battle for the end of June 1942 or end of September 1942. Likely there are official records for that information ... I just don't know where it would be located. Many ships were delivered to the USN during this period, but they needed time to go through shakedown, refits and crew training before heading to the war. Many of the ships built on the East Coast served in the Atlantic temporarily as escorts in convoys or on special missions to Europe before heading to the Pacific. What I'm getting at, the movements of ships were quite fluid and tracking which ship was where and when and if they were "combat-ready" is quite a task.

An example are the Benson/Gleaves ships I listed above. The four DesDiv 22 ships went to the Pacific in January 1942. (And other earlier classes of Destroyers were moved back to the West Coast as well.) The first of the "new" construction Benson/Gleaves units headed for the Pacific in May 1942. In the other direction, the surviving Asiatic Destroyers were refitted as escorts and sent to the Atlantic. Aircraft Carriers and Battleships are easy to track ... it gets a little busy with Cruisers and real busy with the Destroyers.

The listing I provided shows that the delivery of new Destroyer construction was painfully slow to the needs. But it does give a good idea of the priorities given to countering the U-Boat menace that was a BIG problem in early 1942. Of the six Benson/Gleaves commissioned in June 1942, two went to the Pacific and the rest to the Atlantic. The Fletchers started to be delivered in June, but didn't start arriving in the Pacific until September/October. Even then the movement of Fletchers to the Pacific was slowed/delayed so that most of those available at the time were sent to support the North Africa Invasion.

So, Sean, what would you consider the "deadline" for it to have been stolen deom King following the attack. A month? Two? Six????? THREE AND A HALF YEARS???????? The world wonders......

Tracy White wrote:I'm not trying to keep it simple. There are times when KISS will bite you on the butt.

*IF* a unit was built on the east coast, but even before commissioning was intended for service in the Pacific Fleet, do you count that as a transfer from the Atlantic to the Pacific fleet? That's all I'm asking.

If you do not want to keep it simple then that is your choice.
All I see that matters is what I have said in my previous posting. Total numbers from one date to another. That's what I believe the man wants.
If not, then he will say so, maybe?

Gee, all I wanted to know was-

"Oh my, lookit all them sunked ships. Whatever are we to do?"

"I know, let's steal some from Adm King!"

So, which, if any, transferred fleets.

Me and my big mouth...

I'm not trying to keep it simple. There are times when KISS will bite you on the butt.

*IF* a unit was built on the east coast, but even before commissioning was intended for service in the Pacific Fleet, do you count that as a transfer from the Atlantic to the Pacific fleet? That's all I'm asking.

Filipe Ramires wrote:

ar wrote:Units = Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers.

Why not submarines as well???

Your choice.

ar wrote:Units = Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers.

Why not submarines as well???

Tracy White wrote:Alan, are you differentiating between units that were built up for the Pacific and served in the Atlantic fleet for their shakedown and those that were meant to be assigned to the Atlantic fleet but then transferred? It seems to me that most of the carriers were designed and built expressly for the Pacific Theater and only served in the Atlantic during their shakedowns and workups.

The way to look at it, is to keep it simple. As follows:
How many units in the Pacific in December 1941?
How many units in the Pacific at end of June 1942?
How many units in the Pacific at end of September 1942?

Units = Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers.

Alan, are you differentiating between units that were built up for the Pacific and served in the Atlantic fleet for their shakedown and those that were meant to be assigned to the Atlantic fleet but then transferred? It seems to me that most of the carriers were designed and built expressly for the Pacific Theater and only served in the Atlantic during their shakedowns and workups.

Ernest Arroyo wrote:TF 17, Yorktown CV-5 with Sims DD-409, Hughes DD-410, Anderson DD-411 & Hammann DD-412 departed San Diego 6Jan42 escorting a convoy to Samoan waters. Then Joined up with Enterprise group 31Jan42 for raids on Marshall and Gilbert Islands in Feb42. BatDiv Three, Idaho, New Mexico & Mississippi and several DD's sailed for West Coast arriving on 31Jan42 for gunnery training and upgrades. Idaho sailed to Aleutions in May42. New mexico and Mississippi operated between the West coast and Pearl Harbor till June before sailing to the Central Pacific. The four CL's, Brooklyn CL-40, Philadelphia CL-41, Savannah CL-42 & Nashville CL-43 and a large number of DD's (most were West Coast based) that transferred to the Atlantic Fleet in May41 remained in the Atlantic Theatre for most of the war. No other major combat ships transferred to the Pacific in 1942.
Pretty much the Pacific Fleet was on its own until new ships became available in late 1942 into 1943.

I have to count destroyers that went to the Pacific as major combat ships as they are designed to fight with the Battleline.

Were not the four Atlantas transferred to the Pacific, and on station by mid year?

The North Carolina reached the Pacific in June.
The South Dakota reached the Pacific in July.

I'm not sure which ships you include in the category of seventeen "completed" destroyers between December 1941 to the may 1942 time period. I have learned that just because a ship was "Commisioned" does NOT mean it was "completed". The only Destroyers completed before June 1942 were Benson/Gleaves class units. The first units of the "Bristol" group needed a large amount of work done at their Home Navy Yards to meet the new armament standards required. After awhile (~March-April 1942) the building yards started to delivery these ships with the new configuration.

In order of commissioning;

DD-453 Bristol (Comm 22 Oct 41) Completed Jan 42 with 8-10 MGs for AA armament
DD-454 Ellyson (Comm 28 Nov 41) Completed Feb 42 with a quad 1.1-in. and five 20-mm guns
DD-457 Emmons (Comm 5 Dec 41) Completed Mar 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-463 Corry (Comm 18 Dec 41) Completed Mar 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-455 Hambleton (Comm 22 Dec 41) Completed ~Mar 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-461 Forrest (Comm 13 Jan 42) Completed Apr 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-464 Hobson (Comm 22 Jan 42) Completed Mar 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-458 Macomb (Comm 26 Jan 42) Completed Apr 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-456 Rodman (Comm 27 Jan 42) Completed ~Apr 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-462 Fitch (Comm 3 Feb 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson

The above ten units were all assigned to the Atlantic Fleet.
The next eight units were assigned to the Pacific Fleet.

DD-483 Aaron Ward (Comm 4 Mar 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-484 Buchanan (Comm 21 Mar 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-459 Laffey (Comm 31 Mar 42) Completed ~Apr/May 42? armed as Ellyson
DD-460 Woodworth (Comm 31 Mar 42) Completed ~Apr/May 42? armed as Ellyson
DD-491 Farenholt (Comm 2 Apr 42) Completed Apr 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-485 Duncan (Comm 16 Apr 42) Completed Apr 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-486 Lansdowne (Comm 29 Apr 42) Completed Apr 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-598 Bancroft (Comm 30 Apr 42) Completed Apr 42 armed as Ellyson

The following shp was asssigned to the Atlantic Fleet.

DD-640 Beatty (Comm 7 May) Completed unknown and completed armament is uncertain but likely armed as Ellyson

The following four units were assigned to the Pacific Fleet.

DD-492 Bailey (Comm 11 May 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-487 Lardner (Comm 13 May 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-488 McCalla (Comm 27 May 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson
DD-599 Barton (Comm 29 May 42) Completed May 42 armed as Ellyson

These are the 23 of the Benson/Gleaves class commissioned/completed in the early months of the war through the month of May 1942. Six more units were commissioned in June. Some were delivered with the quad 1.1-in. mount. But many, if not all of the units completed in June, were upgraded in July with two twin 40-mm mounts when the 40-mm mounts became available. The Pacific Fleet units listed here served in some of the major early campaigns.

I believe that all of these units completed through the end of May 1942 were painted in Ms-12R as reflected in as delivered photos. The Beatty built at Charleston NY is a wild card in that the USN Yards many times commissioned destroyers well before they were "completed". How soon these ships were repainted to Ms-21 or Ms-22 is not my area of expertise.

Also, four units in DesDiv 22 ... Gwin (DD-433), Meredith (DD-434), Grayson (DD-435), and Monssen (DD-436) ... were transferred to the Pacific Fleet after serving in the Atlantic pre-war.

Please forgive any typos ...

I should have made it clear in my response that I was referring only to the ships that transfered from the Pacific Fleet to the Atlantic in May 1941 and then back to the Pacific Fleet in the months following the attack on Dec.7th.

Hornet arrived at Midway on 13April to join up with Enterprise for the Doolittle raid. Wasp did not reach the South Pacific until 18July.

I'm not sure if I'm EO or not, but if you have the names of the 17 DD's what do you need from me?

Tracy White wrote:He's a busy guy and not a regular contributor. I wouldn't press too hard.

It's his choice.

He's a busy guy and not a regular contributor. I wouldn't press too hard.