The Ship Model Forum

by **Lesforan** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:44 pm

I think President Bush was correct when he defined an "Axis of Evil" and correctly named the members of that axis. To that end, I saw nothing wrong with taking one of those members out. The problem was not invading Iraq, but rather in grossly misjuding the resulting power vaccuum there in the absence of the Baath ruling power. We should have anticipated the power struggle between both the indigenous factions, and also the intervention by Al-Quida and Iran.

Be that as it may, we are now faced with dealing with the resulting situation. It looks to me like we are making good headway, as Sunnis and Shiia realize they must co-operate if they are ever to resurrect their country. The turning of influential Sunni leaders against Al-Qudea is a really good indication of what can be achieved. I think these people have embraced violence for so long because they dispaired of dealing with their problems by peaceful means. Thanks to Coalition actions, they now have hope.

The Kurds strike me as people who mostly want to be left alone to lead thieir own lives. It is unfortuanate that they are infested with a radical Communist faction that seeks territory from Turkey. If the Kurdish Government will shun these insurrectionists, perhaps they can be isolated and destroyed before they provoke a Turkish military response.

A basic foreign policy misconception led to our involvement in VietNam: the concept of a monolithic Communist movement to consolidate power in the region under Chinese leadership. Events after the war showed this to be mistaken: following on the heels of the South VietNam collapse, the new all-Communist VietNam government embarked on an invasion of Communist-controlled Cambodia (stopping a genocide there) and embarked on a border war with China, their alleged sponsor. The Soviet Union turned out to be the major sponsor of Vietnam. Regional rivalries were always simmering there, ready to boil to the surface as they did in the Balkans later.

Can we really expect to win? Most certainly, if we have the resolve.

by **Werner** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:08 pm

chuck wrote:You are the one who, on the very forum, stridently and repeatedly echoed the Bush administration's position that developing countries must accept limits on their per capital carbon emission that is a small fraction of the exorbitant American level so that Americans ability to continue to emit will not be "crushed", or else it is not worth while for America to participate in any climate agreement.

You're wrong. I have never held that position. I have been warning that war will be the inevitable outcome if the neo-Luddites who push the idea of anthropogenic climate change get their way.

Does the Bush Administration hold this view? The only connection I can think of is their view that the exclusion of China and India from Kyoto rendered it meaningless. I wasn't aware they had managed any coherent view on climate change.

by **chuck** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:16 pm

Werner wrote:
Of course, if you want more wars, tell their middle or lower class they cannot aspire to a mortgage or car because it will damage the climate....

You are the one who, on the very forum, stridently and repeatedly echoed the Bush administration's position that developing countries must accept limits on their per capital carbon emission that is a small fraction of the exorbitant American level so that Americans ability to continue to emit will not be "crushed", or else it is not worth while for America to participate in any climate agreement.

Does cognitive dissonance mean anything to you?

by **chuck** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:12 pm

Werner wrote:I believe the solution is to raise the standard of living among the middle and lower classes. People with mortgages and cars don't start race or religious wars.

.....

Are you sure none of the Palestinian suicide bombers came from families with mortgages and cars? Most of the 9/11 hijackers were from at least middle class. Some where from upper middle class and their education and background would have destined them for upper middle class themselves.

by **chuck** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:11 pm

Werner wrote:I believe the solution is to raise the standard of living among the middle and lower classes. People with mortgages and cars don't start race or religious wars.

Are you sure none of the Palestinian suicide bombers came from families with mortgages and cars? Most of the 9/11 hijackers were from at least middle class. Some where from upper middle class and their education and background would have destined them for upper middle class themselves.

by **Werner** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:58 pm

I believe the solution is to raise the standard of living among the middle and lower classes. People with mortgages and cars don't start race or religious wars.

Of course, if you want more wars, tell their middle or lower class they cannot aspire to a mortgage or car because it will damage the climate....

by **chuck** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:30 pm

Tracy White wrote:
If by "realize there is one God" you mean "one day a particular religion will obtain dominance by slaughtering or converting everyone else on the entire planet," then yeah, I would agree what you're saying is possible....

It is not really possible, the beauty of religion is it would automatically splinter into fratricidal fractions whenever there is danger of it running out of adherents of other religions to kill.

by **Tracy White** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:05 pm

Laurent wrote:The day mankind will realize that there is only ONE God , and that this God , whatever his name , whoever loves him really & deeply , and that this God is the only one to be there & to love us , there will be no war anymore ...

If by "realize there is one God" you mean "one day a particular religion will obtain dominance by slaughtering or converting everyone else on the entire planet," then yeah, I would agree what you're saying is possible....

Regarding Muslims and Democracy... while I believe that there are a great many of them who can and want to practice it, I also believe that any religion whose definition means "submission" is somewhat at odds with the concept of personal choice in leadership.

by **Walt** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:16 pm

Laurent wrote:
Walt wrote:. My comrades did not die in vain..but they were dishonored by their own governments failure to win that fight in the first place.
Walt ,

do you really think the US government ever will win this war ?

Do you really think the iraqis , the afghans , the Pakistanis and all those populations in the vicinity want a democracy like Bush Junior had thought ?

No , they don't want it , they have other values , the only system that counts is the Coran , period .

the Coran is not only a religious book , it's also a political book , which tells to the men how they have to run their lives .

And as long that a religion pictures women & non moslims as cattle , the men ruling those areas will keep it that way , it's so easy ...

Why has been Benazir Bhutto been murdered ? because she was a woman . She was a threat to Musharaf and to all those deciding men there ...

When you speak about Europe and the balkani events : we all , here , know that this conflict NEVER will be terminated , within 100 years , there will always NATO or EU soldiers be there . The hate between the albanian speaking kosovars & the serbs will remain for centuries , this is the way it is & this is the way it will be ...

there again , you have moslims fighting christians fighting moslims ...

Religion is the base of all the wars , the spanish killed the aztecs , the christians killed or banished the jews in Spain in the years 1500 , the talibans murdered american civilians the 9/11 , and so on ...

The day mankind will realize that there is only ONE God , and that this God , whatever his name , whoever loves him really & deeply , and that this God is the only one to be there & to love us , there will be no war anymore ...

Yeah !

I'm an utopist , who believes that mankind is good , but the same mankind should think instead of following morons with or without beards , wearing crucifixes or not ...

Regards ,

Laurent

Hi Laurent,
To answer your first question..No I don't think this war will be over or "won" any time soon.. I don't think I implied that we would win.. I did say it that unfortunitly it was a fight worth fighting.. Heck it's a fight we have no choice fighting..Maybe the lunitics will just get tired of killing and being killed.. maybe they will come to understand their own religion that they "claim" to be so close to and discover that Allah is a God of Peace not War.
I have seen war and have lost several good friends to war, I have no desire or fondness for war, it is obscene and wastful but I do believe in self protection and like my fellow New Englanders in New Hampshire I would rather "Live Free or Die".
I don't think the US or any Country can expect the attacks on them to stop if and when they withdraw from Iraq.. Peace is not the U.S. option, peace may be our desire but it's not our adversaries desire, it's the option of the aggressors who use religion and blind prejudice and hate to fuel their causes. If anyone believes that offering a olive branch in peace to these Terrorist/religious fanatics and hate mongers will result in a deal they are naive. Of course like many Americans I thought invading Iraq was not a wise move..but the truth is Iraq's leadership as well as those of Iran etc. were and are a serious threat to our existance and would have been an issue eventually anyway.. just like Iran is about to be..and Pakistan not far behind. These are all things very difficult to comprehend if not close to the fire.
I am a optimistic realist.. what is ..is..This War will end when those waging it learn peace is a better option.
The people in North Vietnam on the other hand was not driving bomb laded vehicles into schools and markets filled with innocent people or driving airplanes full of innocents into buildings in their unholy cause. They were fighting for a political/historical and in their own way Patriotic reason and were no threat to anyone except themselves.. and the unfortunite Sons of America and France before that were placed there to put roadblocks to their ideals.
Both Wars have only death in common.
I'm sorry to get so far of topic and into deep water.. These debates (as I'm sure our moderator will agree) belong in another sandbox..
Be well

by **chuck** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:31 pm

Laurent wrote: The day mankind will realize that there is only ONE God , and that this God , whatever his name , whoever loves him really & deeply , and that this God is the only one to be there & to love us , there will be no war anymore ...

Laurent

We need to all smoke something much stronger in order to actually bring that day about.

by **Laurent** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:25 pm

Walt wrote:. My comrades did not die in vain..but they were dishonored by their own governments failure to win that fight in the first place.

Walt ,

do you really think the US government ever will win this war ?

Do you really think the iraqis , the afghans , the Pakistanis and all those populations in the vicinity want a democracy like Bush Junior had thought ?

No , they don't want it , they have other values , the only system that counts is the Coran , period .

the Coran is not only a religious book , it's also a political book , which tells to the men how they have to run their lives .

And as long that a religion pictures women & non moslims as cattle , the men ruling those areas will keep it that way , it's so easy ...

Why has been Benazir Bhutto been murdered ? because she was a woman . She was a threat to Musharaf and to all those deciding men there ...

When you speak about Europe and the balkani events : we all , here , know that this conflict NEVER will be terminated , within 100 years , there will always NATO or EU soldiers be there . The hate between the albanian speaking kosovars & the serbs will remain for centuries , this is the way it is & this is the way it will be ...

there again , you have moslims fighting christians fighting moslims ...

Religion is the base of all the wars , the spanish killed the aztecs , the christians killed or banished the jews in Spain in the years 1500 , the talibans murdered american civilians the 9/11 , and so on ...

The day mankind will realize that there is only ONE God , and that this God , whatever his name , whoever loves him really & deeply , and that this God is the only one to be there & to love us , there will be no war anymore ...

Yeah !

I'm an utopist , who believes that mankind is good , but the same mankind should think instead of following morons with or without beards , wearing crucifixes or not ...

Regards ,

Laurent

by **Tracy White** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:56 am

I was pleasantly surprised how well Alice in Chain's "Rooster" about the guitarist's dad during the Vietnam war did.... occasionally some level of awareness seeps into pop culture.

by **DJ Blackburn** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:32 am

Laurent wrote: I had a thought a few days ago about the 5 Sullivan brothers , imagine their mother getting the visit of the officials .

Regards ,

Laurent

One of my favorite all-time music tracks is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi8wMWIn ... re=related

I discovered the tune years ago, when it was first released. What grabbed my attention was the lyric "blue star in the window" (I bet less than one in a thousand Americans under the age of 30 , have even a clue what that means).

Don't be put off by the g�nre (rock)--this is a hard-driving song, but very focused and well-written, save for the completely forgivable reference to the Sullivans serving aboard "a mighty mighty battleship". That then-young musicians two generations removed from the event would even create this music, impressed me almost as much as the local radio station's willingness to air it.

by **Lesforan** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:53 pm

I don't always agree with Walt, but I must say I think he is right on this one. An untimely pullout from Iraq or Afghanistan would surely result in a bloodbath.
The only way to prevent this is to stay until the emerging governments are strong and stable enough to protect themselves.

Any politician willing to pull our troops out prematurely will have to be held responsible for what happens in their absence. Maybe a day will come when our leaders will feel that our costs outweigh our gains. If we do reach that point, what will that say about the sacrifices that have been made up to then?

The damage the VietNam War did to this country is the result of inept leadership in Washington. If we gained anything from that war, it should be the lessons:
Do not start anything you do not intend to finish.
Wars should be fought with maximum effort to achieve a timely victory.
Define what "victory" means so you'll recognize it if you achieve it.
Do not allow a war to become a self-sustaining industry unto itself, with internal incentives to perpetuate itself indefinitely.
War is a military means to a political end. Define your goals in advance.
Do not wage a war with rules of engagement designed to minimize effect on your enemy, especially at the cost of your own people.
Do not send our forces to fight a war based on a moral imperative, unless the politicians have the moral backbone themselves to declare war.

No one is forced to fight in Iraq/Afghanistan. Even those who complain that they just signed up to gain the educational benefits knew they could be required to fight as a condition of their agreement. Our people are volunteers, self-motovated to serve this country and do the right thing. When we are blessed with such people as these, our government is obligated to use them wisely...we certainly owe them that.

by **Walt** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:42 pm

Werner wrote:Walt, the jury is still out on Iraq. I support the current operations in that there is an opportunity for a reasonable, relatively secular bulwark in the Gulf. It is possible that the next administration will react to any setback there with an immediate withdrawal which could have much the same effect as the fall of South Vietnam in 1975.

Remember, we won that war on the ground and in the air. We lost it in the media, as NVA commander General Giap explains in his autobiography.

I agree but with all due respects to those who disagree about this. I do get tired when the "Vietnam" spin is put on the WOT. Anyone who lived thru both times knows it's comparing apples to oranges.. It's not all that simple and as long as this war drags on we should give better thought to it all than to label it just another Vietnam..
No pun or mal-will was intended by my post.. This is after all a Hobby site and I am one who truely appreciates that fact.

by **Werner** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:17 pm

Walt, the jury is still out on Iraq. I support the current operations in that there is an opportunity for a reasonable, relatively secular bulwark in the Gulf. It is possible that the next administration will react to any setback there with an immediate withdrawal which could have much the same effect as the fall of South Vietnam in 1975.

Remember, we won that war on the ground and in the air. We lost it in the media, as NVA commander General Giap explains in his autobiography.

by **Walt** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:08 pm

Laurent wrote:Hi Werner ,

thanks for that ...

I still don't get why you all went there , Iraq is the 21 century Vietnam , your politicians just suck ( my opinion )

But still , this youtube show moved me till I got tears in my eyes ...

Yes , we will remember

Regards ,

Laurent

I disagree, Besides being a unpopular War and political footballs Vietnam and Iraq have nothing in common.
I was in Vietnam.. We deserted hundreds of thousands of good people there to be murdered and so on by the Communist North.. These people the US abandoned wanted democracy and were willing to fight for it..The NVA and VietCong were no threat to the security of the free world like Iraq/Afgan, etc are. Maybe the US should have never gone to Vietnam but they surely dropped the ball by abandoning it. My comrades did not die in vain..but they were dishonored by their own governments failure to win that fight in the first place.
Iraq on the other hand hasn't a clue about Democracy and all they want is to be left alone by the US and it's allies. They are war weiry and dogged by every sect that has more guns than they do.. A Country being run by cults of personality with only self gain for an interest all in the name of somebodies God or King.
As for being worth it.. well for every lunitic killed in Iraq by US Forces this is on less lunitic that the World has to worry about ruining their day in their own back yards..and after witnessing 9/11 it sure is worth it. Iraq does serve as a good Taliban/Insurgent/Murderer/religious Lunitic killing ground for sure. This is the sad truth of this war. Since the US involvment there our backyards have been safe..Ironic?? I think not. Worth it?? You bet ya.. If Iraq et al was to be left to their own devises to insure our security from such lunitics does anyone believe they would or could do this??? No way.
So it seems the US must do it themselves..like so many other things in it's glorious 231 year History.
I do wonder what the US is doing in the Balkins however.. This is not our problem..it is Europe's problem let them solve it. Some of us here have not forgotten we are still babysitting Europe's problems and believe it's high time we left Europe to their own military resources etc especially now that they don't support the US interests in the Middle East.. This is something we will see changed in the future especially if a Democrate is elected.
It seems most of the Dems have an isolationist spin to their Foreign policy.. They may be on to something.

by **MichelB** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:48 am

I also appreciated this one, mood and music are a little different, but nonetheless...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc454SHNWuw

by **Tracy White** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:37 pm

I only hope that, in the end, it will have been worth it in some way.

by **Werner** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:56 pm

Dear Madam:

I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the Adjutant-General of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle.

I feel how weak and fruitless must be any words of mine which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering to you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the Republic they died to save.

I pray that our heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement, and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom.

Yours very sincerely and respectfully,

Abraham Lincoln

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