The Ship Model Forum

The Battle of Elli (also known as the Naval Battle of the Dardanelles, Greek: ???????? ??? '?????) took place on the December 3, 1912 as part of the First Balkan War.
The Royal Hellenic Navy, led by Rear Admiral Pavlos Kountouriotis on board the flagship Averof, defeated the Ottoman Navy, just outside the entrance to the Dardanelles (Hellespont). During the battle, Kountouriotis, frustrated by the slow speed of the three older Greek battleships Hydra, Spetsai and Psara, hoisted the Flag Signal for the letter Z which stood for "Independent Action", and sailed forward alone at a speed of 20 knots, against the Turkish fleet. Averof succeeded in crossing the Turkish fleet's "T" and concentrated her fire against the Ottoman flagship, thus forcing the Ottoman fleet to retreat in disorder. The Greek fleet, including the ships Aetos, Ierax and Panthir continued to pursue the Turkish fleet off-and-on between the dates of December 13 and December 26, 1912.
This victory was quite significant in that the Turkish navy retreated beyond the Straits and left the Aegean Sea to the Greeks who were now free to liberate the islands of Lesbos, Chios, Lemnos and Samos.
Through Pope Benedict XV the graves of the dead at Dardanelles were taken care of, photographed, and identified. The Greek cruiser Elli was named for this battle.

Pic of the armoured cruiser Averof[attachment=1]averof.JPG[/attachment]

General characteristics of the three antiquetated "battleships" Hydra Spetse and Psara
Displacement: Standard 4,885 tons
Length: 103 m
Beam: 15.8 m
Draft: 6.4 m
Propulsion: steam engine
Speed: 20-knot (37 km/h) maximum
Armament: 3 x10.6-inch (269 mm)
5 x 6-inch (152 mm)
Armour: 10-28 cm on the hull
7 cm on the deck

The Hydra Class,(Psara, Spetsai and Hydra) was ordered from France in 1885[attachment=0]Psara_ship.jpg[/attachment]

[quote="MartinJQuinn"]Thanks for that reminder...now I know why the dates been sticking in my head all day![/quote]

I main reason I remembered it is because I tried to get off from work so I could go to Gettysburg today; Ken Burns is speaking.

[quote="Devin"]145 years ago today Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address. One of the most succinct pieces of writing ever created.[/quote]

Thanks for that reminder...now I know why the dates been sticking in my head all day!

145 years ago today Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address. One of the most succinct pieces of writing ever created.

[quote="Gilbert"][quote="chuck"][
Nope, Yamato's magazine exploded when the ship was still on the surface, although listing 110 degrees.

[/quote]

Hi Chuck,

acccording to Yoshida Mitsuru book "Requiem for Battleship Yamato", p.117, it appears the magazines' explosions occurred when the ship was already under the surface:
"[i][b]The ship is already completely under water; I am in the whirlpool.
There is a full load of shells for the main batteries:armor-piercing shells, one round of which can sink a ship, and type-3 shells, one round of which can knock out a squadron of planes.
First, the fore magazine explodes. Twenty seconds after the ship went under?
Had it happened before the sinking, with the ship still on the surface, the explosion would have turned us outtright into shrapnel and scattered us in all directions.
But the water, even while toying with us, deadened its force...."[/b][/i]

I just wanted to point this testimony for your information :wink:

cheers

Gilbert[/quote]

There is a photograph taken from a US aircraft which shows the the first moment of the huge detonation that resulted in a mushroom cloud visible from 100 miles away. The photo clearly shows the incipient fire ball and the hull of the ship half-way capsized but still on the surface. This was almost certainly the detonation of B 18" magazine which cut the hull in half.

The wreck also shows a second detonation of the aft 6" magazine that vented through the ship's bottom, but did not severe the hull. The fact that this magazine explosion did not cause the sympathetic detonation of the C 18" magazine immediately behind it suggest it occurred after the ship already submerged and the aft 18" magazine was completely flooded.

[quote="chuck"][
Nope, Yamato's magazine exploded when the ship was still on the surface, although listing 110 degrees.

[/quote]

Hi Chuck,

acccording to Yoshida Mitsuru book "Requiem for Battleship Yamato", p.117, it appears the magazines' explosions occurred when the ship was already under the surface:
"[i][b]The ship is already completely under water; I am in the whirlpool.
There is a full load of shells for the main batteries:armor-piercing shells, one round of which can sink a ship, and type-3 shells, one round of which can knock out a squadron of planes.
First, the fore magazine explodes. Twenty seconds after the ship went under?
Had it happened before the sinking, with the ship still on the surface, the explosion would have turned us outtright into shrapnel and scattered us in all directions.
But the water, even while toying with us, deadened its force...."[/b][/i]

I just wanted to point this testimony for your information :wink:

cheers

Gilbert

[quote="Ultimo Tiger"]

I'm sure I'd read about the magazine thing, unless I'm getting confused with [i]Yamato[/i]?[/quote]

Nope, Yamato's magazine exploded when the ship was still on the surface, although listing 110 degrees.

Musashi's magazines appears to have detonated shortly after the ship slipped beneath the surface. Survivors from Musashi and crews of nearby ships reported severe concussions from large underwater explosions shortly after Musashi slipped under. When Musashi went under, most of her citadel was still unflooded. so at least parts of magazine would still be capable of explosion. It also seem possible that the concussion came of the unflooded portion of the citadel imploding as the ship went deeper. Evidence does not favor the wreck of the Musashi being in good condition.

The [i]Arizona[/i] is tourist attraction. It's a memorial that also acts as one.

It'd be interesting to know what people in Japan think.

I'm going to start a new thread for this so we don't drag this one off topic :smallsmile:

This is a terrible idea, even if unlikely.

The ship is a grave. It should be left alone. If it were raised, it would set a very bad precedent.

The part that really sounds troubling is that the article said it would be displayed as a tourist attraction. How is that suppose to foster friendship between the two countries? What do you suppose the response would be if this company offered to raise the Arizona for use as a tourist attraction?

Sweden sat out the war as a neutral country. They need to count their blessings and leave things like this alone.

According to Wiki:

[quote]The wreck of[i] Musashi[/i] is believed to be at 13� 07' 01" North, 122� 31' 59" East, off the Bondoc Peninsula, in 1,350 meters (4,429 ft) of water.
[/quote]

That's far too deep unless they have something special up their sleeve. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this leviathan in the flesh but I don't want them to try something that may destroy the wreck even more.

I'm sure I'd read about the magazine thing, unless I'm getting confused with [i]Yamato[/i]?

[quote="HMAS"]Swiss firm yes.
http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2008/10/23/PROV20081023138756.html[/quote]

The article contains factual errors about the crew size, much less crew casaulty. Besides, as far as I know the wreck of Musashi has not even been found, much less surveyed to determine whether it is salvageable. The area where the ship went down is very deep, salvaging such a large ship from such a depth would be unprecedented, if not technically impossible. Survivor recollection says the ship's magazine(s) exploded shortly after the ship went under, which greatly diminish the probability that the ship would still be intact enough to float after the salvage.

So it's a way of the Japanese saying sorry to the people of those islands by using it to make money for them?

Just tow it to Yokosuka where it can be beside [i]Mikasa[/i]. That's it's home, either that or Nagasaki.

Swiss firm yes.
http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2008/10/23/PROV20081023138756.html

Article said it was a Japanese firm.

Maybe I misread it.

Why would the Swedish want to recover dead Japanese sailors?

Maybe they want to recover they dead sailors?

The weight of Musashi is unaffected by the water inside her until she would reach the surface. The ship would need to somehow be sealed while still underwater, and then dewatered slowly as it breaks the surface. It would be a huge job.

This ship should not be raised. There is no compelling reason to do so. The fact that it is a war grave should dictate that it rest undisturbed, unless it poses a substantial danger.

Considering all the water in her, I assume[i] Musashi[/i] weighs over the 100,000 ton mark?

Not to mention it's a war grave for over a 1000 men.

Still if they do it and turn it into some sort of memorial, I suppose it's not too bad. Would serve as a reminder to all that war is senseless and even the mightiest can fall.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view/20081022-167881/Raising-Musashi-could-harm-environment

24 Oct
Musashi sunk.
& now a Swedish firm wants to raise her, but the Phillipines guvmint says no!
No I haven't forgotten it's not April the first. No joking

a quick link to the sinking of the Yamato, sorry I found it on another site.
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=318168

[quote="Gerarddm"]Maybe so, but a toast to the Immortal Mem'ry nevertheless.[/quote]

Indeed - a glorious end to the career of a glorious man.