The Ship Model Forum

Hi Everyone:

I have now finished the 1/400 scale HMS Formidable carrier. It is in a sea diorama and launching aircraft on a mission during an "action stations." The model also has 3 flying hellcats that are stuck to the plexi cover roof with a touch of sticky white glue on the tail and the spinning prop [made from plexi]. As I mentioned earlier, I also have a completed model of my late father's ship - the Dido Class AA Cruiser HMS Argonaut. I know that the Argonaut was off the Japanese coast during the last days of the war, as was Formidable as part of TF57. My question is, was the Argonaut anywhere near the Formidable - possibly acting as a picket ship to protect against kamikazis and to scan for any "bogies" shadowing the returning BPF planes? It would be neat to have a story that connected the two models that I now have on display. My father did mention a harrowing typhoon that did happen in the first week of August 1945 and also mentioned Hammy Gray - the Corsair pilot from the Formidable who was killed in action on the 9th of August [he was awarded a VC]. I have Hobbs' book of the British Pacific Fleet - while it has a lot of detail it does not cover the question of the possible relationship between the Argonaut and Formidable in the closing days of the war.

Thanks for any insights.

Alan

Thanks everyone for the info. I am still unsure as to what to put on the deck, so will await for any other insights. I think I did see a greek phi sign at the stern on one of my pics - will check on this further.

Alan

I am reliably informed that whereas the aircraft tail codes remained unchanged during 1945, this was not true of the carrier deck letters. The two are not linked. Formidable carried R during operations off Japan, but her deck was still camouflaged for Okinawa and it must be possible that she still carried her Greek letter PHI, an O with a slash through it. I'd have thought this too similar to Indomitable's O, but then I didn't have a proper Classical education.

Some of the photos captioned as FORMIDABLE show deck letter "R" on this webpage: http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/formidable.htm. However, none show any aircraft with tail letters visible.
Tim

Sturtivant's list of BPF codes only has X for Formidable, with R only appearing on Glory. However he also quotes X for Victorious, as well as P. As Illustrious was Q, and Indefatigable S, it does seem possible that he has simply missed R on Formidable, but it is surprising that no photos of her aircraft carrying R appear to be known. Perhaps more have come to light since the book was published? I do recall a comment about the deck (or tail?)letters having been changed at one stage, but can't say where that came from.

Looking further, surprisingly there's nothing (I can see in a quick look) in Hobbs' appendices, but Cort has a photo of Formidable with R dated October 1945, and Indomitable with O dated June 1945. It seems that on at least some of the carriers the aircraft tail letters did not match the carrier deck code, so I'd stick with R until better information appears.

PS There's a brief mention in Hobb's text, for the introduction of this system in March 1945, but it doesn't assist in these details, other than confirming Indomitable's tail code as W at this early stage. He also reproduces the photo in Cort.

Hi Everyone:

Progress on my HMS Illustrious is now getting near the end. I have now decided to redesignate the carrier to HMS Formidable since some of the detail that I ended up with on the superstructure better resembles Formidable [particularely the famous photo taken after the kamikazi attacks]. I have changed the carrier designation on the aircraft to have the "X" on the tail fin but I am puzzled as to what to put on the flight deck. Some of the photo references I have for other BPF carriers show the carrier letter designation on the stern and some on the bow. The Formidable photos that I have show an "R" on the bow but no "X" anywhere that I could see. Can someone help me as to what Formidable had by way of a designation letter - if any - during the Okinawa campaign 1945.

My model is now settled in a resin water diorama and I am touching up the water with acrylic paints. I have had a plastic cover made for the model to keep out the dust and spiders and I have decided to have some of the planes flying within the plastic cover. I am still experimenting on how to do this without messing up the plastic cover. It looks like I could attach the planes directly to the inside top of the cover using a small drop of tacky white glue on the tail fin and canopy of the aircraft. I think this will look really cool when finished.

Thanks for any comments or feedback.

Alan

I'm in the early stages of my Illustrious build - Taranto 1940 and in addition to the aforementioned resources, add the following:

* [i]Battlefleet Royal Navy in the 20th Century[/i] - DVD; superb close ups of Illustrious limping into Malta in January 1941. http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Royal-Navy-20th-Century/dp/B000H1QQVO
* [i]The Royal Navy at War[/i] - DVD; various footage of carrier operations including many of Illustrious class; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-War-Museum-Collection-Royal/dp/B000BBG926
* [i]Warship Profile #10[/i] - includes Taranto camouflage; http://www.amazon.com/Warship-Profile-Illustrious-1939-1956-Technical/dp/B0007C88BE
* Builders Model - HMS Indomitable - Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton UK; I was recently there and it provided much useful detail on the various hull openings where the ship's boats are mounted; also detail on rigging and various colors of minor items. In a few weeks, I'll post the photos I took once I get time to organize them

Hi DavidP:

To clarify, I did NOT cut off the base of the hull. The whole hull is buried up to the waterline within the plaster in the base. Consequently you do not need the props and rudder, and as I mentioned earlier you do not need the kit planes either. They are not that good and the L'Arsenal planes are much better - you can get all kinds of aircraft types in the compatible 1/400 scale. I have had some 1/400 BPF aircraft decals made for me by CanMilAir see http://www.canmilair.com/categories.asp?cat=14 As mentioned in the last post, the completed model will look much better in a substantial/deep base. I have a completed 1/350 scale model of my father's ship HMS Argonaut during WWII. It looks great, has some brass name plates on the base and a custom made clear plexi cover to keep out the dust. I don't think I would be able to extract the model from the resin seascape [even supposing that I wanted to, which I do not]. If you have modest carpentry skills, making the base is not difficult. I have made mine out of black walnut stock.

Good luck,

Alan

[quote="DavidP"]didoalan, no you did not understand my question. did you cut off the lower hull or not? if did cut off then what are you going to do with that lower hull? if did not cut off lower hull then what are you going to do with the props & shafts?[/quote]
I believe he replied that he is NOT cutting off the lower hull, but burying it within the base.
[quote="didoalan"] Hi DavidP:
Although my model will be a waterline, I decided not to cut off the bottom of the kit - looked too risky for screwing up. Instead I have made a base that is deep enough to hold the whole model.[/quote]
Perhaps you missed it? :wave_1:

[b]To Didoalan[/b]:
I only interjected here because I was startled to see someone besides myself, willing to employ your technique. I have buried lower hulls for YEARS, as it retains the strength and integrity of the model. I find the notion of hacking-off lower hulls somewhat ridiculous and utterly wasteful. This is not a problem when a kit comes with full/waterline hull options, as the latter is addressed by the manufacturer and eases the shortfalls of the cutting process.

Any "base" not thick enough to conceal a static model's lower hull, is disproportionate to the scale perspective, anyway--IMO. Thin pieces of plexi or other stock simply don't "look" right by themselves, and I've always held that a good, solid base is as important as the model in or above it. I've used up to 3/4" mahogany stock, solid, given a clean router-bit treatment on all edges, and with the base cut or routed-out where the hull fits. Applying the decorative sea surface is easily done, once the base is secured.

I am very pleased that you will be keeping the lower hull--I think you will find that, at some future date, you might want to remove your project from its base, altogether---perhaps to change its display to a full-hull format, or simply to do some other work on it (as I had done) without the encumbrance of the base being present or risking major damage to it (as I had done! :heh: ). If you want to correspond on some ideas I used back then, feel free to PM me and I will be happy to do so. But from your description, you've got it well in hand!

Just wanted to give you a hi-five for making an old man happy with your intentions to hide rather than ruin, half your model!

:thumbs_up_1:

Hi DavidP:
Sorry, I may have misled you on the use of the resin-based products to simulate water. The products that I have used for both a waterline ship model and for model railway scenery are Woodlands Scenics Realistic Water and Woodland Scenics Water Effects. They work very well. When painting the plaster base, paint it flat black [house paint is OK] - NOT blue or green as you might be tempted to do [it will look unrealistic when finished]. You can brush on some faint highlights of dark green over the black. After the resin has cured with the ship hull in place, you can also brush on white or light green for foam or wake effects around the ship's hull after applying the Water Effects product to simulate wash turbulance. If you are not sure what to do try a small test in an empty sardine can.

Cheers,

Alan

Deck-edge netting was a common feature for carriers (or areas of carriers) that did not have deck-edge galleries. They provide some measure of safety for sailors that may get blown or washed over.

Hi Timmy C:
Many thanks for this wisdom - it does seem to make sense re the deck railings, it would be a major safety hazard when flight ops were active. I have some great video of the BPF in the Pacific with a number of sequences showing take-offs and landings. Planes going off the side on landing was not uncommon. One picture that I have of Illustrious [you can find it on the web with a Google search] shows some kind of lateral arms with possibly nets, at the bow of the ship during flight ops. Maybe so that personell can jump for cover if needed?

Hi DavidP:
Although my model will be a waterline, I decided not to cut off the bottom of the kit - looked too risky for screwing up. Instead I have made a base that is deep enough to hold the whole model. I test fitted the model in the base with Saran Wrap around the hull, and pored in an amount of plaster paste to reach just below the water line [which I had marked]. When the plaster was dry, I removed the hull and can now paint the plaster surface. I plan to use Walthers Liquid Water, to create the sea surface, after the model is substantially finished and can be placed into the base. The resin/PE aircraft kits from L'Arsenal are much better than the original kit planes. The WEM PE upgrade is also well worth it. See http://www.helmo.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=762&Itemid=1 for an excellent reference for building this kit.

Good luck,

Alan

Hi Alan, welcome to the board! Nice to see a fellow Vancouverite here (though I'm in Calgary now).

My understanding of carrier railings and lifelines agree with what you have supposed. All of the railings on the flight deck are portable and are setup usually only when VIPs or guests are onboard and/or during dockside. Similarly, the deck edge antennae are lowered for flight operations, something the Essex class carriers had as well.

Hi everyone:

I am a newby here but I have previous posts in the forum on Dido class WWII cruisers. I am now well into modeling HMS Illustrious using the old Hellor kit. As has been said many times, the kit is a bit crude but I have upgraded with WEM photo etch and resin sets plus some L'Arsenal 1/400 corsairs and avengers [also have some hellcats]. My current dilemma is about whether to install railings on the flight deck. I have a number of photo and video references of Illustrious as well as other models of this and similar carriers. As a non-expert, it seems that the railings were present when the ship was in standby mode - anchored in port, but they do not seem to be present during operations - when the flight deck was active. Does anyone know if I am right here? If so, I imagine that the railings were deployable depending on circumstance. I have also noted that the deck edge antennas were in the vertical position when the ship was in standby, but deployed horizontally during operarional mode - am I correct here?

I am also looking at the accommodations ladders - there are 3 of them. I am assuming that these were not deployed during operations but were somehow stored within the ship.

My model will be a water line model with an active flight deck during operations.

For some background on my interest, my father was an officer on the Dido cruiser Argonaut and experienced many actions in the Mediterranean, Sumatra and the Pacific with the BPF. His ship was a major player as a picket ship for the carriers.

Many thanks for any comment.

Alan Procter
Vancouver, Canada

[quote="Graham Boak"]Some years ago, a modeller did a conversion for IPMS UK magazine, using the Aosima Victorious kit but putting her into 1945 modification state. This was based on the information in the Anatomy, which I see you have, but may give you some idea of the work (considerable) required. I can let you have a copy if you wish.

Indomitable had different lifts to the earlier three ships, and different deck markings, so don't rely too much upon the deck plan.[/quote]

Yez please that would be great. I have found various plans for Indomitable over at Steel Navy which shows the different position and size of the elevators

Hey guys, found this posted on another forum I frequent. A color documentary shot aboard [i]HMS Victorious[/i] in the Med circa late 1950's. Its 30 minutes long and split into two parts. Great footage of Sea Venoms, Scimitars, Whirlwinds and AEW Skyraiders during flight ops. There's also and UNREP with an AO and shots of the escorting cans :thumbs_up_1:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJFbSB5PyVc&feature=related[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opyVMVsLqxU&feature=related[/url]

Are the crew really wearing what appear to be standard issue sandals?

Some years ago, a modeller did a conversion for IPMS UK magazine, using the Aosima Victorious kit but putting her into 1945 modification state. This was based on the information in the Anatomy, which I see you have, but may give you some idea of the work (considerable) required. I can let you have a copy if you wish.

Indomitable had different lifts to the earlier three ships, and different deck markings, so don't rely too much upon the deck plan.

Have now got
a) Anatomy of the ship: Victorious - which helps with general class layout.
b) Have flight deck plan of Indomitable from Steel Navy drawn by Alan Raven
c) Have several photographs good enough to see general layout of Indomitable from both sides.
d) Have offer of ships plans from NMM for Formidable and Indomitable but at over �100 it seems a bit over my budget.

Have got both models from Aoshima
Illustrious 1940 and Victorious 1941.
They are identical except that Victorious has an extra spruce which adds a small gallery of 20mm AA guns on either side of the flight deck aft and a further gallery of 5 x 20mm guns on the starboard side of the island. This would represent her in 1942 just prior to her going to America for a refit before sailing to the South Pacific in 1943.

Where can I get plans of ILLUSTRIOUS and INDOMITABLE. I am particularly interested in the layout of the recesses in the side for boats, etc. There is a small plan for Illustrious in BRITISH CARRIER AVIATION by Friedman but nothing that I can find for Indomitable and they seem to be different.

HP do a resin Illustrious Class complete with 12 aircraft but I have not seen any other models despite extensive searching in 1/700.