The Ship Model Forum

I tried to track down photos of all the BENSON-GLEAVES units in TF 39 myself awhile back for a different reason (trying to find out when PLUNKETT got her quad 1.1-in mount ... found that out in Official files as being May 1942), with no luck.

Your comment on Ms 12(mod) is close, but it is less straight-forward than being in two waves. In mid-1941 through about the end of 1941, there was much camo experimentation going on. I have images of BENSON-GLEAVES class destroyers departing Boston Navy Yard in roughly the same month with different Measure schemes (the original Ms 12 being one). I have observed that in early 1942 the "jigsaw" pattern of Ms 12(mod) appeared (see the images I posted of LANSDALE and WOOLSEY above) and then appears to be gone by about March 1942. It appears that destroyers went through several "styles" of Ms 12(mod) patterns as the paint need to be re-done from wear. I suspect that which yard painted the ship also determines the "style" of the pattern. The Ship's CO/Crew also could dictate the way a ship was painted to "Ms 12(mod). Ms 12(mod) just didn't have a standard design sent out by the powers to be like the Ms 3x Dazzle schemes. I'm not a camo expert. The only reason I have tried to date schemes is to help with the dating of photos for the different configurations. There are lots of photos with no dates or questionable ones. On top of that the Pacific and Atlantic commands went their own ways on camo.

One of the big problems with trying to know the camo scheme used by a given ship in the first six to nine months of the war, is that most of the destroyers were being kept very busy on convoy escorting missions and operations. They had only short stays in yards (unless major repair was required) and almost no post-work photos were taken for those short stays. The mission with WASP was sort of an exception in that their air crew took a fairly large number of photos. But they just didn't catch WILSON and MADISON.

Mr. Davis is correct as to what I'm looking for, as well as being wonderfully helpful. I mis-spoke earlier when I speicified the summer of 1942, what I'm looking for is the appearance of these two ships (Wilson and Madison) in the spring of that year. The OB I have for TF 39 is Lang, Stack, Sterett and Wilson (all Benhams), and Livermore, Plunkett, Madison (Benson-Livermore types) and Wainwright (Sims). I've found good pictures of schemes for 6 of the DDs and the heavy units, and was hoping I could get the whole TF correct. Ah well, the quest continues.

I think that MS 12 (mod) went through two phases, at least for destroyers. The pictures of the DDs entering Hampton Roads represent the first period, when everyone seemed to be making it up as they went along, so there is a lot of variance and mostly "flowing" patterns. But all the pictures I've found of the DDs that got overhauls and then went to the Pacific all seem to have had the "alternating bands" type, as shown in the picture of Sterett incorrectly dated Feb 16, 1943. I think she (and probably her sisters) wore this from her time at Hampton Roads (or wherever she got her overhaul) until she got another re-fit and paint job.

I think Mark is looking for any photos of the two specific destroyers ... WILSON and MADISON ... that operated in TF 39 with the home fleet during late March 1942 to late May 1942 period and not too interested in Pacific appearance. The only photos of these eight(+) destroyers I'm aware of during this period, that are identified as such, are the ones I posted. Also, I was trying to get at is that if photos of these two destroyers turn-up outside of this period of time, they may or may not be in the same camo worn during that period. Ms 12 didn't follow any standard patterns and several destroyers had multiple Ms 12 patterns between late 1941 into the Fall of 1942. Many of these destroyers had refits before and after the TF 39 assignment, when repainting of the ship to the same or different pattern could have occurred.

An example is STERETT, she completed a yard period just before this mission and the photos I scanned show a fresh paint job to the same pattern shown in the above 26 May 1942 image I posted and a photo taken after she went to the Pacific has a completely different pattern of Ms 12. Unfortunately there were not similar photos for all ships in the class.

DD-407 STERETT on 22 March 1942 at Norfolk Navy Yard
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD407x20-22Mar42.jpg[/img]

Notice plated over portholes.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD407x21-22Mar42.jpg[/img]

DD-407 STERETT dated as 16 February 1943, but this photo was taken earlier since other Mare Island photos taken ten days before this view is dated shows her painted in Ms 21 and with armament upgrades.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD407x11-16Feb43.jpg[/img]

DD-407 STERETT on 6 February 1943 at MINY.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD407x28-6Feb43.jpg[/img]

The USN was experimenting with camo all through this period and I have yet to find anyone who can say when one "style" of Ms 12 began and ended. Saying a ship during this period was in Ms 12 is almost meaningless.

Just as an aside, MADISON and her sisters ... DD-426 through DD-428 ... all in the same DesDiv, many times went in for refits at the same time. Also, each East Coast Navy Yard; Boston, New York, Norfolk, Charleston, and maybe Philadelphia, had their own "style" in applying camo. So, it is "possible" that photos of one of them would be similar to the others in the Des Div. But, that by far is NOT a certainty.

Well, Wilson didn't sail with Madison after 6/6/42 because she was with Wasp and headed for the Pacific after that date. So she would have been painted for the Pacific.
The refueling photo dates to July-Aug, 1942
Here she is in Dec. '42.
[attachment=1]DD 408 2 Dec 1942.jpg[/attachment]

In June 1942, Stack DD-406 (Benham Class) accompanied USS Wasp to the Pacific. She escorted that aircraft carrier during the early August invasion of Guadalcanal and Tulagi and remained in her screen during the early weeks of the campaign to hold Guadalcanal.

Sterett DD-407 (Benham Class) arrived back in the Pacific in June 1942. Here's picture from May '42
[attachment=0]DD 407.jpg[/attachment]

So, of the 4 ships named in the question, only one was in the Atlantic during the Summer of 1942, the Madison.

Something else to note is that when operating with the Home Fleet, TF 39 became TF 99.

I forgot.

Ms 12Mod started to be painted over with Ms 22 in a big way during September and October 1942 in the Atlantic anyway. MOST ... BUT NOT ALL ... destroyers involved in the North Africa Invasion operations were painted in Ms 22. I have photos showing a large number of BENSON-GLEAVES units being refitted for the North Africa campaign during September-October and they were repainted at that time. Newer units that were painted in Ms 12Mod in August 1942 and earlier in 1942 AND that didn't NEED or have time for a refit, retained that Camo during the invasion. But, it seems that all of the surviving earlier BENSON-GLEAVES units still in the Atlantic (DD-421 through 432 and 437 through 443) all seem to have been repainted in Ms 22 by November 1942. But, there could be one or more that didn't get repainted.

An interesting July 1942 report I came across in PLUNKETT's BuShips files and wasn't in LANSDALE's records, talks about an experimental camo used on LANSDALE with LIGHT GREEN paint is on Tracy's website ... http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/1942JulyPlunkettCamouflage.html ....

Mark,

If your question is what "style/pattern" of Ms12Mod Camo that WILSON and MADISON wore in the March-May 1942 period, that will be hard. I don't know of any idenitfied photos from that period for these two destroyers. I came across photos of WASP and her escorts arriving back at Norfolk on 26 May 1942 ... none of which were WILSON (arriving at New York about a week before WASP and her five DD escorts) or MADISON ... and have posted the images below. If there is any "common" features in the camo between these five destroyers, I don't see it. Also, I have added images of three early BENSON-GLEAVES from February 1942. What is interesting is that LANSDALE was one of WASP's escorts at that time and has, for lack of an official "name", is wearing one of the "jigsaw" patterns seen early in 1942. WOOLSEY is wearing the same sort of scheme. LANG's camo pattern seems to be modeled after some British camo practices.

I had at one time a list of the eight(+?) destroyers that operated with WASHINGTON and WASP during this period, but I can't find it right now. I do know that destroyers came and went with this Task Force (PLUNKETT was one that joined after TF 39 arrived in the UK being replaced by MAYRANT). Although the USN liked to keep destroyers from the same class in operational units, for much of 1942 in the Atlantic anyway, whatever ships were available were assigned to the required tasks in whatever combination.

Here are five of the destroyers that returned with WASP to Norfolk Navy Base on 26 May 1942.

DD-399 LANG
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD399x40-26May42.jpg[/img]

DD-403 TRIPPE
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD403x40-26May42.jpg[/img]

DD-407 STERETT
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD407x10-26May42.jpg[/img]

DD-439 EDISON
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD439x4-26May42.jpg[/img]

DD-444 INGRAHAM
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD444x5-26May42.jpg[/img]

Here are some of the BENSON-GLEAVES ships to MADISON (DD-425) earlier in the year during February 1942.

DD-423 GLEAVES
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DDUnkDesRon7x40-26Feb42.jpg[/img]

DD-426 LANSDALE
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD426x3-Feb42.jpg[/img]

DD-437 WOOLSEY
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD437x8-2Feb42.jpg[/img]

But Russ, none of that info answers Mark's question of paint scheme.

USS Wilson - http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-w/dd408.htm
In June 1941, after a year mainly spent in the Hawaiian area, Wilson was transferred to the Atlantic. In the last half of that year, and first months of 1942, she served an escort for major fleet units off the U.S. east coast and, in March-May 1942, steamed across the ocean to Iceland and the British Isles.

Wilson served in the Atlantic until June 1942 and returned to the Pacific as part of a task group centered around USS Wasp, and accompanied it to the south Pacific in July 1942. and was thereafter in the Pacific.
Refueling from Wasp
[attachment=0]DD 408 1942.jpg[/attachment]

USS Madison - http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-m/dd425.htm
With Germany on the verge of collapse in the spring of 1945, Madison steamed through the Panama Canal to join the war against Japan.

You might consider that Madison was Benson Class while Wilson was Benham Class. The Navy tried not to mix classes at that time.
Additionly, the Benham class was a third generation destroyer while Benson Class was 4th generation. http://www.destroyerhistory.org/destroyers/introduction.html

Hello all,

I am trying to track down the camo schemes of two US DDs in the North Atlantic during the summer of 1942, when they were serving as part of TF 39.

The ships in question are the Wilson (DD-408) and the Madison (DD-425). The Ship Camo site puts the Wilson in Ms 21, but I doubt this. The rest of her division (Lang, Stack and Sterett) were in quite elaborate versions of Ms 12 (mod), so I find it hard to believe that the Wilson would be in overall navy Blue, especially since that was a Pacific Fleet scheme. I have pictures of her emerging from a refit in December of 1942 in Ms 21, but I'm pretty sure she got that during the overhaul. Inthose pictures it seems apparent that they painted over Ms 22, but that would have been applied at the end of the North Atlantic service, when the whole division went in for maintenance, and got re-painted.

The same site puts the Madison in Ms 22 druing 1942, which is feasible, but I still doubt it. From what I can gather, Ms22 was only applied from summer of 1942 on, so if Madison went into the yards after her Atlantic cruising it would have been applied then. The rest of her division were also in Ms 12 (mod) during the summer, so I expect she was as well.

Does anyone have any pictures of these two ships during the summer of 1942, or can anyone direct me to a source that does?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

Mark