The Ship Model Forum

From what I've read of German fire extinguishers, red was never their color. Civilian fire extinguishers were green, and ones on tanks and other military vehicles were painted in the vehicle's base color, ie; Panzer Gray, or Dark Yellow. Don't know if this answer is of much help, but at least the fire extinguishers were most likely NOT red, and probably the surrounding superstructure color.

Similar vein to the floats; how about fire extinguisher bottles? There are two of what I presume are these on the forward starboard superstructure and I'm wondering if they were part of the camouflage or some other color such as red.

I asked Antonio, he replied that this is indeed Z-31.

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

So far the only one I've seen is the Bismarck-Class.dk website photo; is there reason to believe it's not Z-31?

Tracy White wrote:(...) and the starboard side of the actual ship.

Make sure you really look at Z-31 photos. I don't know if it was the case for this particular ship, but there were a few destroyers featuring a very similar camouflage pattern, easy to mix them up. You may want to ask Antonio, he spent a lot of time with the destroyers, I'm sure he can help.

Happy researching ~ Olaf!

Looking over the photos, it looks like really only one or two would have any sort of demarcation question. I'll mull it over as I get closer to painting the kit up. For what it's worth, I see some differences between Dragon's guide and the starboard side of the actual ship.

@ Tracy ~ Difficult. I have to look it up but the paint regulations state two kinds of paints: Schlauchbootfarbe ('paint for floats' in grey and brown) and Persenningfarbe ('paint for canvas' in grey), both could have been used. However, colour photos do show all kinds of colours used, including yellow, e.g. Bismarck and L�tzow in Baltic colours in Gotenhafen. Sometimes they incorporated the rafts and floats into the camouflage scheme, there is one famous photo of Admiral Scheer showing this, and of course, Scharnhorst in her final camouflage (we had this in Dan's WIP).

The paint regulations are a bit vague, I strongly believe there is another document dealing with all this 'health and safety' stuff ...

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

Hi Tracy,

I read in a book about German Navy Camouflage that they painted their floats in a yellow colour. I saw several models of Kriegsmarine ships in the museum of the German Naval Academy in Flensburg M�rwik and all were fitted with yellow floats. I don�t know if there was a regulation stating that all floats had to remain in the "signal colour". Maybe there was one at the end of the war but take a look at these pictures of Z32:

http://www.rahe-privat.de/html/z-32.html

They show that the paintsheme is applied over the rafts too. Maybe it was up to the CO?

Thanks Olaf. One more question if I may; what were the regulations with regards to the painting of the floats?

In the USN they were painted to match the background, including the pattern, but in the photos above, it would appear that there might be some light floats hanging over a dark bulkhead. Perhaps just temporary, or did the Navy not put as much emphasis on keeping the camouflage pattern "pure?"

I wouldn't be too sure about the use of three shades of grey. It could be that they used the light grey for both the hull and the superstructure. So far we've learned that most camouflage patterns (here: the dark grey) were applied directly on top of the so-called piecetime livery (Hellgrau 50 on superstructure, Dunkelgrau 51 on hull) but as Torben correctly implied, they could have used anything as a base coat. The paint regulation states that refreshment paint jobs should take place in case the finish has reached a shabby, worn, dirty etc. appearance, then, in this case they put on another coat of piecetime livery and then the next camouflage pattern. It could be that the interpretation of the regulation differed from boat to boat, from ship to ship, from officer to officer - and of course depended upon paint availability. I wouldn't be too surprised if Z-31 received a refreshment paint job of light grey overall and then the dark grey pattern (or whatever was called for, it even could have been something in the range of Dunkelblaugrau). I do not know much about the destroyers and their missions. Some received a new pattern for a certain mission, but kept it for a longer period. You would have to look at every single ship, its operations and most important, its location. For practical reasons, it was just impossible to paint the ships for longer periods.

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

Hi Tracy,

gun mounts, cable reels or boats on the deck was painted in the same color, like the background color of the superstructure, where they were located.

Thank you. A question about weapons and platforms, if I may. Were the gun mounts painted the same as the surrounding structure? How about cable reels? I assume so. How about platform overhangs; would they match the dark color underneath a platform, or was it more likely to be a different color, like the original gray it was painted in?

I started painting the platform around the aft stack today, which is one reason the question has come up again.

Hi Tracy

I think that Lance suggested a very good match to the pictures. Some years ago a Kriegsmarine Veteran who sailed on several DD�s and the old BB Schleswig-Holstein told me that they had suffered from colour shortages as the war was progressing. In a timeframe starting from 1942 to the end of the war they basically used everything in grey colour they could find. Although there were no exact orders how a ship should have been painted like in the US Navy. The paintsheme was up to the CO. That makes it a bit difficult to find the exact shemes of each ship and could explain the different grey tones one can see on the photographs of most ships. In my opinion Z39 as DD939 for example wasn�t painted in 51 but a different, more beige grey.

Thank you very much, a great help.

Yes, this is correct.

If I'm reading you correctly there are three colors for the sides? The lighter Hellgrau 50 above the main deck and Dunkelgrau 51 on the hull below it, with the dark color either Dunkelgrau 1 or 2.

Hi Tracy,

that is a fault of Dragon.
Hellgrau 50 is for the Superstructure and Dunkelgrau 51 is for the Hull.
I think the dark camouflage is Dunkelgrau 1 (RAL 7016) or Dunkelgrau 2 (RAL 7024).

Dragon's instructions for their new kit call for a side pattern in Hellgrau 50 and DunkelGrau 51, which as you can see from the tins in this photo are fairly close in tone. Yet the photos on the below links show a greater contrast.... now granted, they are really crappy photos, looking to be several generations away from the original, but are the colors listed on Dragon's sheet correct?

http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/kriegs ... troyer.htm
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/german_destroyers/z31.html