The Ship Model Forum

Yet again thank you. The the aft deck house shape wise I should be looking at the 45 Benson/Buchanan as well. Remove the interior splinter shields. Scratch build the 20mm decks aft of the funnel an in front of the bridge.

This helps a lot.

Wiki is totally wrong about the armament for any of the Repeat BENSON-GLEAVES units. The armament you listed was typical of the early built BENSON-GLEAVES units (DD421-444) prior to the AA upgrades, which a few of the last built received prior to commissioning.

ENDICOTT like all repeat BENSON-GLEAVES units (those built from DD-453 on), were authorized seven 20-mm guns. Most completed with the typical four 20-mm guns, two before the bridge and two amidships (one per side of the second stack). Three 20-mm guns were added. The Round-Bridge units had three 20-mm in front of the bridge (two on the deck and one on an elevated centerline platform), two in the bridge wings (one port and starboard), and two amidships next to the second stack. The Square-Bridge units couldn't have 20-mm in the bridge wings, so a platform for four 20-mm guns was installed aft of the second stack with the searchlight and the two 20-mm guns amidship were relocated there. This was a unique configuration feature for DD493-497, 618, (not DD-619, her configuration was unique to her), 620-628 of the Sqaure-Bridge units. Along with the three 20-mm guns installed forward of the bridge gave them a total of seven 20-mm guns. The last four Square-Bridge units, DD645-648, had another unique arrangement with "staggered" twin 40-mm mount and two 20-mm guns. So, by the time of Anvil/Dragon she had seven 20-mm guns and looked like McCOOK and THOMPSON.

The aft deckhouse and the aft end of the midships deckhouse seen in the THOMPSON's photo is the arrangement ENDICOTT had during Anvil/Dragon. Of the DML 1/350 scale BENSON-GLEAVES kits, the 1945 BUCHANAN and 1945 BENSON kits are "closest" has the twin 40-mm bulwark arrangement. Some modifications are required however to accurately represent the bulwarks actually installed. No kit has the four 20-mm arrangement amidships.

Here is an onboard view of the modified arrangements made to ENDICOTT in late September-early October 1943 when the aft 20-mm guns were relocated and two added, plus mods were made to the 40-mm shields.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD495CloseUp40mm-20mm-5Oct43.jpg[/img]

This is great information. So based off this I think it is reasonable to say she was in M22 during Operation Anvil/Dragoon.

The pictures you provided will be a great help to me in making sure I get the details of the paint right.

[quote="Rick E Davis"]

McCOOK (DD-496) aerial view during March 1944. A good study of the configuration the ENDICOTT was most likely in during her June-August 1944 period.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD496x1-Mar44-1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

So the configuration I am seeing above is leaving me with a few questions about. I know this is not quite the right thread, but since the information is in front of me here......

Looking at the deck plans for Endicott shows the aft gun deck to have two twin mounts. But she also only launched with four 20mm mounts. I am seeing six in this picture. Granted it is a different ship, but it does leave the question that did she have the two 20mm added, and was her aft 20mm deck area similar to McCook's? The Wiki page for the Endicott lists her as having six 20mm mounts. Although I do not put a lot of stock there as it also says she has ten torpedo tubes, five 5" mounts, and six .5" guns that I do not believe she had (unless I am blind).

Also I can not seem to find out if her port 40mm splinter shield went around like the starboard oneor did it stop like the orginal build of the Buchanan?. Or if there was one or two fire control directors for the 40mm mounts. Were they different than the one used for the 1.1"?

Angelic,

I'm going to post several Square-Bridge GLEAVES class units in Ms 22. Plus I'm going to confuse you about ENDICOTT, I discovered something about her camo in 1943 that is interesting ... I had missed this about her before.

CARMICK (DD-493) on 4 October 1943 in pure Ms 22. Note the demarcation line between 5N and 5H follows the waterline, also note the location of the hull number.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD493x5-4Oct43.jpg[/img]

ENDICOTT (DD-495) on 6 October 1943 in Ms 18 (I'll explain Ms 18 below)
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD495x5-6Oct43.jpg[/img]

A close-up of ENDICOTT's hull. Note the line of the demarcation between 5N and 5H ... it follows the main deck line and isn't parallel to the waterline. Hard to see but it is there, note the plating seam that is just above the demarcation line. Ms 18 followed the sheer line of the Main Deck and Ms 22 followed a line PARALLEL to the waterline at THE lowest point of the Main Deck. Hard to realize until one notes where the hull number is in relation to the demarcation line ... compare CARMICK to ENDICOTT.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD495HullCloseUp-6Oct43.jpg[/img]

An even closer view of the seam of hull plates just above the demarcation line, this is just above the main deck.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/CloseViewDD495.jpg[/img]

Looking at this Navsource August 1944 image of ENDICOTT, she was painted into Ms 22 by this time. Likely she was repainted in early 1944 during her overhaul at New York Navy Yard OR after her May 1944 collision damage repair in Scotland.
... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0549508.jpg ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0549511.jpg ...

McCOOK (DD-496) aerial view during March 1944. A good study of the configuration the ENDICOTT was most likely in during her June-August 1944 period.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD496x1-Mar44-1.jpg[/img]

A close-up of THOMPSON (DD-627) on 25 January 1944 at New York Navy Yard painted in Ms 22. Note how the demarcation line between 5N/5H differs from that of ENDICOTT in October 1943. Note that the seam line noted above on ENDICOTT continues to rise above the 5N/5H demarcation line following the sheer line of the main deck and the forecastle (01) deck above.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD627HullCloseUp-25Jan44.jpg[/img]

A close-up of the aft deckhouse of THOMPSON on 27 January 1944. This view shows off well the general arrangement of the Sea-Tac built Square-Bridge GLEAVES units operating in the Atlantic in early 1944.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD627AftDeckhouse-25Jan44.jpg[/img]

HARDING (DD-625) on 5 October 1944. Note the slight difference in where the demarcation line was applied to HARDING by the same yard ... New York Navy Yard.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD625HullCloseUp-5Oct43.jpg[/img]

Several BENSON-GLEAVES units were painted in Ms 18 about August 1942 when the newer schemes (Ms 17/18/21/22) started to appear on newer destroyers and replaced Ms 12(mod) on older destroyers, but many more destroyers in the Atlantic were painted to Ms 22. I had noted in photos that most Ms 18 painted units were repainted to Ms 22 in the Fall of 1942 or early 1943 during post-shakedown overhauls. So, I was surprised to note that ENDICOTT was painted in Ms 18 during August 1943 and retained it into October 1943. It appears from the Navsource image that she was repainted to Ms 22 at the least, following her hull repair in Scotland after the May 1944 collision prior to the actions at D-Day and in Southern France.

A C; spend a little time flipping through the [url=http://www.shipcamouflage.com/warship_camouflage.htm]ShipCamouflage.com camo information[/url]; you'll find a lit of information there like a [url=http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_22.htm]description of Measure 22[/url] as well as a [url=http://www.shipcamouflage.com/benson_class.htm]camo database page for Benson/Gleaves[/url] with a list of other ships that wore this scheme. You can fill-in-the-blank with information a lot of times this way.

The Measure 3X series of camouflage was an attempt by the Navy to standardize pattern camouflage, but there were lots of little subtle variations ship-to-ship, and it was [url=http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/1943JulyDazzlePlans.html]allowed by the Bureau of Ships[/url] to have some variation. The design sheets were sent to each ship's captain, and the correspondence I've seen basically just said "here's the design sheet" so I don't know if the ability to vary was passed down to the captain or left more to their squadron or flotilla commanders at this point. DD-424 Niblack was one of a couple that swapped the pattern port side for starboard side and vice versa, for example, but it's hard to see that there was any ulterior motive for doing so as the rest of her Division (DesDiv 13) was also in the same pattern and she wasn't a flag ship and didn't really need to stand out.

I would agree that the [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0549504.jpg]dazzle photo[/url] of her on her [url=http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/495.htm]Navsource page[/url] is later in the war due to the "orange peel" Mk 22 radar on top of her Mk 37 director. Rick may be able to provide an install date.

PS - Rick, Pattern 3D is going to look pretty much the same regardless of measure number. Only difference is the colors; "Dark pattern" (Measure 31) tended to use black whereas "Medium pattern" used the slightly lighter Navy Blue on it's darkest patches.

When you have a chance, it would be appreciated. :smallsmile: But please enjoy your family and the holiday first.

That is correct.

Sorry, I don't have time now to post images. I have a family Thanksgiving gathering (delayed a couple of days) to go to on Saturday (I should be in bed) and I'll have to upload a couple of images late Saturday or on Sunday.

Thanks Rick. Could you post a couple of shots of M22 on Gleaves please?

22 was 5N on the lower, 5H on the rest of the verticals and 20B on the horizontals right?

The photos on Navsource show a photo of ENDICOTT off England in May 1944 and another taken in the Med in August 1944 in Ms 22.

I have a photo of sister DD-496 McCOOK in March 1944 in Ms 22 and several other photos for sisters on Navsource show them in Ms 22 during that period. DesDiv 35 left after overhaul at NYNY and training in mid-April for Europe to prep for the invasions, the only chance they had to be repainted into dazzle would be in England ... highly unlikely. Dazzle on USN ships in the Atlantic was really a short period ... I think based on the few photos I have looked at and going by the dates provided ... starting about August 1944 until about March 1945.

The August photo is from 1943. The photo with her in 32/3D is only listed as "late 1944"? Did I miss something there?

Navsource has a photo of her in August 1944 in Ms 32 3d.

So if I am understanding you correctly, during Operation Anvil where the Endicott sunk the two corvettes she was not in 32/3D but M22?

I don't have any images of ENDICOTT (DD-494) in dazzle camo, but in looking through the Camo Database quite a few GLEAVES class destroyers had this scheme (22 are listed with it, but how many were painted so after being converted to DMS is unknown).

I checked which DesRon ENDICOTT was assigned to and it was DesRon 18 which consisted of:

DesDiv 35: DD-493, 494*, 495*, 496, 497*

DesDiv 36: DD-624*, 625*, 626, 627

Five units (marked with "*") of this all Square-bridge GLEAVES class DesRon were listed as being painted in Ms 32/3D. The pattern sheet is drawn for a Round-bridge GLEAVES class, so there could be some differences. The pattern sheets were "guides" and there were variations in how the patterns were "actually" applied. I see that Navsource has one aerial view of ENDICOTT and none of her two DesDiv mates also listed as being in Ms 32/3D. DesDiv 35 appear to have been painted in Ms 22 during the European Invasions and returned to New York Navy Yard in early October 1944 for overhaul. It appears that is when they were repainted into Ms 32/3D. Likely all three were painted to the same layout of this scheme as "adjusted" for Square-bridge units. So any photos of these should give you the same info. Navsource has several views of BALDWIN (DD-624) and HARDING (DD-625) in Ms 32/3D ... unfortunately they are views taken AFTER they were converted to DMS. I don't have any images of any of these five destroyers in Ms 32/3D. I do have an image of a Round-bridge unit painted at New York at about the same time, maybe this image will help you.

I can find several images in my collection taken of early BENSON-GLEAVES class units (DD-421, 422, 429, 431 were all painted at New York Navy Yard) listed as being Ms 32/3D (I'm not a camo expert and generally wouldn't know one dazzle scheme from another with out study ... 31/3D, 32/3D, and 33/3D would all be the same to me :scratch: ). If you would like some of those posted I can.

USS TILLMAN (DD-641) on 8 October 1944.
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/DD641x33-8Oct44.jpg[/img]

I do but it is hard to read and I have seen some discrepancies in it versus the few shots I have seen. The one shot of the Endicott I have found in that measure the DP guns appear to not follow the pattern, nor does the fire control director.

Do you have the pattern sheet for it? http://www.shipcamouflage.com/DesignSheets/M32_3D_DD-421.jpg

Can anyone post some pictures of M32/3D for Benson/Gleaves class please? I grabbed the ones I found in the calling all fans thread on them, but I will take any I can get. Regardless of how "bad" the I ages may be. Thanks in advance.