Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

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Expand view Topic review: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:37 pm

Dan K wrote:... we must extrapolate or use the next best possible resource, no?
1. I would say "extraprolate" -- some "pro" (for provision) should be inserted here just in case.
2. I think the next best possible resource (to the IJN photos) is the common sense, realized in the form of questions like "What a hell this thing is doing here?"

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Dan K » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:28 pm

Sorry, Ledinot, I misunderstood the point you were making. All is good.

I agree that nothing is as good as a photo but, photos are not always available for the IJN so, we must extrapolate or use the next best possible resource, no? :smallsmile:

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:57 pm

Sorry, Dan, may I know what are you disagreed with? I only tried to clarify the position of the 25mm gun director tub depicted on the photo you had previously posted, nothing else. Thanks for the full photo, now I have more reasons for the starboard midsection position of this MG director tub.

As for the Gakken series I think the models and drawings are 1/10 worth of photos. The same rule works for Myukikai plans and other plausible sources.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Dan K » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:00 pm

Soryy, Ledinot, but I must respectfully disagree. That photo was cropped from the full one below. The MG director is clearly mounted in a full, round tub while the 25mm mount positions for this class are all semi circular shielding in front, excepting the two enclosed units starboard aft the funnels.

While not perfect in other respects, the 1/100 Gakken Zuikaku 1942 model would be a very good reference for these positions.
Attachments
Shokaku damage, Coral Sea, May 1942.jpg

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:04 pm

Dan K wrote:The thing is, the directors on board the Shokakus were uncovered, at least some of the time.
Dan, the picture #2 inscription is �Shokaku mast, AA damage midsection #2, Coral Sea, May 1942�, but it definitely looks like the 25mm director tub; is it the stbd forward mounting (in vicinity of the island), the portside aft �standalone� mounting, or something else? I have also noted the tear-off hatch might imply the gallery/pathway to the right of the tub had been destroyed, and there were also distorted railings to the left of the tub. By the way, the photo of Shokaku damage you had posted later in this thread also showed distorted railings, not solid bulwark, between the stbd aft 25mm directors� tubs.
--------------
There seems to be a solution to help solve the issue of the absent tie-down holes of Shokaku class decks, mentioned in your Shokaku class reviews. The name of this tool is the �IJN Carrier Moorage Hole Template�, produced by Rainbow (http://www.hobbyeasy.com/en/data/49289.html)

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Dan K » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:58 am

Both the Hara SHobo plans, and the Miyukikai plans, all show round director tubs for this class. Typically, classes do not mix different styles.

I will note, however, that I think the two MG directors on the starboard aft side are probably enclosed, like the two 25mm & two 12.7cm mounts ahead of them, to protect from funnel smoke.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Atma » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:19 am

By the way in IJN Hiryu in 1/700 the directors are the parts "M-36" with cover and without cover the parts "M-56".

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:17 pm

Dan K wrote:Ledinot, for the Shokakus, all the director emplacements are fully round, as in the photo of the damaged one from the Coral Sea above.
I can not see the MG director tubs on the above mentioned photo "fully round". I do not have 3D glasses. Maybe you have more convincing proofs. Once again, there is a number of sources testifying to semicircle shape of MG director tubs on several IJN carriers.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Dan K » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:27 pm

Thx for the references, Atma. I'll check 'em out when I get home.

Ledinot, for the Shokakus, all the director emplacements are fully round, as in the photo of the damaged one from the Coral Sea above.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:10 pm

Atma wrote:On Shokaku is the number "T-25", 1942 version "V-6" with cover and "T-25" without cover. In IJN Zuikaku is the same number as 1942 IJN Shokaku plus the "X-17" without cover.
Thanks, Atma. Yes, two X17 items look very similar to the single T25 item in my Fujimi Zuikaku kit. I wouldn't say they both look like MG directors. But the main issue is that these X17 are not mentioned on the instruction sheet anyway.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:53 pm

Dan K wrote:As far as I can tell, the Shokakus did not have a "hard" top for these directors.
As far as I can understand the only question now is the shape (form) of these Shokaku class MG director tubs: were they rounded (semicircled) or round (circled).

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Atma » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:42 pm

By the way, Dan I assume you have the Fujimi's IJN Kirishima. The unshielded director is the part number "M-35".
On Shokaku is the number "T-25", 1942 version "V-6" with cover and "T-25" without cover. In IJN Zuikaku is the same number as 1942 IJN Shokaku plus the "X-17" without cover.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Atma » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:33 pm

The hard top is removeable to is not suprising that in some ships is missing.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Dan K » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:13 pm

The bottom GPS image is of Junyo.

As far as I can tell, the Shokakus did not have a "hard" top for these directors. OTOH, Shoho/Zuiho did. In fact, you can clearly see the angle topped director in the Zuiho pictures at Cape Engano, which makes me think that the tops were not removable for some models.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:56 pm

Dan K wrote: As I said, my impression was that the directors seem to be open topped most of the time, at least for this class, though there are instances when they also seem to be covered, at least by canvas.
Dan, thanks for the pictures. I don't know what CV deck is depicted on the bottom part of the page from GPS book (IMHO this is neither Shokaku nor Soryu class) but this drawing shows rounded but not round (encircled) MG directors' tubs. You probably saw the similar things on Shokaku class portside pictures or plans. The other two pictures you had provided definetely testified to the open and not encircled MG directors' tubs on the Shokaku starboard aft -- while the Futubasha 3D CG shows (and Fujimi realizes) shielded MG directors on the starboard aft gallery. I suppose IJN used a sort of frame for the canvas covers for those tubs, and frames seemed to be of smaller diameter than the tubs themselves.

By the way, the Fujimi 1/700 Zuikaku kit instruction sheet leaves these - questionable - two portside round (encircled) MG directors' tubs "empty"; moreover, there are no appropriate items in Fujimi PE set. The same "empty" tub is on the starboard, just below and after the island.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Dan K » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:55 pm

Timmy, your language skills are always appreciated :smallsmile:

Ledinot, my apologies for not being clear. As I said, my impression was that the directors seem to be open topped most of the time, at least for this class, though there are instances when they also seem to be covered, at least by canvas.

The Gran Prix Shuppan volume for cruisers shows an illustration of an enclosed director with three people crammed inside. An illustration from the carrier volume, below, shows it as both enclosed and open, which makes me think that perhaps the top of the enclosure was removable. I'm just not sure.

I've cropped some additonal photos of Shokaku after being damaged at Santa Cruz 1942, and at anchor at Yokosuka 1941. The (2) directors in first photo are at the very upper left, while the (2) directors in the second photo sit in the middle, with two triple 25mm mounts to either side. These do show some coverings, but, again, to me they look like simple canvas.
Attachments
Type 95 MG director, GPS CV vol, p287.jpg
Shokaku damage, port aft, post Santa Cruz, Gakken dlx vol, p180 crop.jpg
Shokaku, August 1941 at Yokosuka small crop starboard aft.jpg

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Timmy C » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:32 pm

We're lucky in this case that the characters are the same in form and mean the same in both Japanese and Chinese, the latter of which is my native language (though have lost much of it).

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:31 pm

Timmy C wrote:#3 is "late period model", while #22 is "early period model".
I am awfully sorry, but your knowledge of Japanese is desparately wonderful... How did you manage to understand those words? Unbelievable.

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Timmy C » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:08 pm

#3 is "late period model", while #22 is "early period model".

Re: Fujimi 1/700 Shokaku 1941 Addendum - reposted

by Ledinot » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:24 pm

Dan K wrote:When not in use , they were covered, at least with canvas, though it does look a little like a sloping facing on the front. Note the two leftmost positions.
Not certainly sure what you mean, :smallsmile: but the landing array - the forward one - is there. Sorry for boring so far.

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