The Ship Model Forum

For what it's worth, [url=http://www.shipcamouflage.com/benson_class.htm]Ship Camouflage also says Ms 31 / 6D[/url]
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/DesignSheets/M31_6D_DD-421.jpg
This calls for 5-H / 5-O / Black.
(as an aside, thanks to this thread, I've made two corrections to the Benson class page on Shipcamouflage; thanks for getting me to look)

Glad that there is some consensus.

Results of the experiment, using a dosage syringe that a local pharmacy donated for the purpose:

Blending of 0.6 ml Colourcoats US31 #17 Neutral Ocean Gray and 0.8 ml Colourcoats white, in duplication of the USN formula for 5-H haze gray, produces haze gray that is light enough in contrast with Neutral Ocean Gray to fit the late-WW2 photographs of USS [i]Bailey[/i], [i]Meade[/i], and [i]Wordworth[/i]. This reproducible outcome substantiates that the camouflage of those ships was indeed measure 31.

The corollary is that Colourcoats US28 Late WWII #27 Neutral Haze Gray is distinctly too dark to represent the haze gray of measure 31. For models, instead I'll blend a larger batch of haze gray by the USN formula.

The philanthropic pharmacy requested anonymity lest the global population of readers of this board demand further donations of syringes.

Tracy, thanks for those links.

If you really want to get into camouflage to that level, you should also bookmark:
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/warship_camouflage.htm (note - the complete SHIPS-2 library)
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/index.html

It's not uncommon for there to be confusion with regards to the actual measure of a ship - witness some of the arguments we had about the Battleship North Carolina a number of years ago and whether the darkest color was black or Navy Blue.

Now, Bailey is not a ship I've paid any attention to before, and Navsource is down... I'll see if Rick Davis has any good shots he can post or let me look through. There's a couple other resources we can use, but since it's still the work day fo rme my time is limited for now.

Good point. The color photos especially of [i]Missouri[/i] show the same hue of ocean gray on monitors and in print, and match the Snyder and Short sample for late-WW2 ocean gray, so I conclude that this hue is accurate.

Chemistry offers a solution, and in more than one sense. [url]http://www.hnsa.org/doc/camo/index.htm[/url] has the USN WW2 instructions for blending ocean gray (5-O) and haze gray (5-H):

45 pints 5-O = 40 white + 5 tint --> 11.11% concentration of tint
42 pints 5-H = 40 white + 2 tint --> 4.76% concentration of tint

By those formulas:
3 ml 5-O contains 0.33 ml tint.
7 ml 5-H contains 0.33 ml tint.

7 ml 5-H = 3 ml 5-O + 4 ml white --> 4.76% concentration of tint

That is, blending of 3 ml ocean gray and 4 ml white yields 7 ml haze gray of the same hue.

The experiment will be to see whether the contrast between ocean gray and this blended haze gray matches the photographs of the actual destroyers. If the match is poor, then I'd conclude that these actual ships wore measure 32 colors, not measure 31.

What are these color photos displaying on; a monitor, paper, a magazine? How much do you trust the accuracy of the color represented? Monitors are horrendously bad at accurate portrayal unless you [url=http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?id=788]calibrate[/url] your monitor. the 1941 Haze gray was essentially the same [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightness]TONE[/url] as the neutral 1945, but was a purple-blue based color, with a decided blueish tint.

USS [i]Bailey[/i] (DD 492) was camouflaged at Mare Island in 1944, to measure 31/32 pattern 6D. Her sister ships USS [i]Woodworth [/i](DD 460) and USS [i]Meade[/i] (DD 602) wore the same camouflage. Navsource has sharp photos of all three.

If the actual paint shades used on these ships were for measure 32, in which the lightest shade was Navy light gray instead of haze gray, then that explains the actual photographs. Or, maybe I am looking at the wrong vintage of haze gray for measure 31.

WEM indeed label #17 ocean gray as 1945 but it matches color photos of USS [i]Missouri[/i] and USS [i]Flint[/i], both painted in the US during 1944. Late 1941 ocean gray appears more blue. I have Snyder and Short USN WW2 ship colors sets 1 and 2.

[quote="Michael Potter"]Which model paint is correct for USN 1944 measure 31 haze gray?[/quote]

WEM Colourcoats US 05 Late 1941 5-H Haze Gray The neutral Haze and Ocean grays you speak of didn't exist when she was painted in 1944.

I looked up Bailey's war diaries on Fold3.com.
Bailey arrived at Mare Island on 25 October 1944 for overhaul and repair of battle damage. She was completed of 5 December.
A note on a Navsource photo indicates that she appeared to be one of the last units to retain the pattern camouflage following overhaul. http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0549220.jpg

A photo of Benson in Navsource has her in Measure 32 in 1944
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0542102.jpg

Is the photo black and white and can you post/link it here? She's newly painted but do you know WHERE she was painted? New painting regulations took longer to get to the forward bases then to the stateside yards.

I don't know the exact dates but I'm pretty darn sure the Neutral grays weren't officially in use until sometime in 1945 so if the ship was freshly painted in 1944 you need to get the earlier purple-blue based versions of the colors. The fact that the neutral colors match color photos from mid-war may simply be due to the lighting of the ship and/or the film itself.

Hope that helps
-Mike

Photos of USS [i]Bailey[/i] (DD 492; [i]Benson[/i] (DD 421) class) newly painted in 1944 show a prominent contrast between the lighter gray (which in measure 31 is haze gray) and the darker gray (which is ocean gray).

I'm using Colourcoats US31 #17 Neutral Ocean Gray (1945) for that shade and for the decks. This ocean gray matches color photos of other ships in 1944, including USS [i]Missouri[/i], so I think it is correct. But Colourcoats US28 Late WWII #27 Neutral Haze Gray is barely lighter than the ocean gray, and does not show the strong contrast visible in the photos of the actual USS [i]Bailey[/i].

Which model paint is correct for USN 1944 measure 31 haze gray?