The Ship Model Forum

From top deck by bridge.
For lack of knowing proper name the same deck as smokestacks is attached. I'm building a model of the USS Laffey DD-724. I made one many years ago out of match sticks which was ok. Now wanting to make a better, more accurate one but hard to get good pics of the Laffey and dimensions. What I found, the mast would be 90 ft at that point. Sound, right? Making it with wood.

height of mast from what part of the ship, main deck, waterline & bottom of keel? top of which smoke stack, forward of aft?

Would 90ft be about right for mast?
Now confused. Found another place says 30ft.

what time period are you looking for, ww2 or post ww2?
DD-692 USS Allen M Sumner Booklet of General Plans (1968) https://archive.org/details/dd692bogp1968

How tall would the mast be on a sumner destroyer, like the USS Laffey? And smokestack height?
Should have added DD-724 , WW2.

Thought I'd ask in destroyer forum. I'm looking for a moder for a sumner class destroyer that I could use to copy and make a model of the USS Laffey. Any suggestions?

I agree that is a Fletcher class destroyer.

Great video - except the DD in the video is clearly a Fletcher rather than a Sumner.

Destroyers Allen M. Sumner-class Wallace L. Lind (DD 703) refueling in a heavy sea off Saigon circa.

January 13, 1945.

Full movie: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/77947

[youtube]2sUvXmyA5Ys[/youtube]

The Takom/Snowman 1/700 scale GEARING Class model out-of-the-box is a basic Fleet Destroyer configuration as the first units were completed. Starting in April 1945 (not every unit got this upgrade that soon) the GEARINGS replaced the aft torpedo tubes bank with a quad 40-mm mount as part of the Anti-Kamikaze Program. Snowman/Takom issued this kit as USS FRANK KNOX (DD-742) with a dry-dock built at Boston Navy Yard and USS SOUTHERLAND (DD-743), but only have the decals for DD-743. Both of these destroyers were converted to DDR configuration after shakedown at Boston Navy Yard (BosNY). The DDR configuration initially replaced the forward torpedo tube mount with a tripod mast for a radar antenna. When the Anti-Kamikaze program upgrade was applied to the DDR and Fleet destroyers, the aft torpedo tube mount was replaced with a quad 40-mm mount. The Takom kit DOES NOT include parts for the DDR conversion or the Anti-Kamikaze AA upgrade.

About the only versions of GEARINGS this kit can be built to out-of-the-box, are the early units prior to the Anti-Kamikaze mod or DDR conversion. Many early units were completed by their builder in the original configuration as see in this kit. But, before going to the Pacific and operational use, they had the Anti-Kamikaze mod upgrade done whether a Fleet Destroyer or a DDR, except for two DDR's that went to the war zone while retaining the aft torpedo tubes.

Your main interest unit, USS EVERTT F. LARSON (DD-830) was built by Bath Iron Works (BIW) and was delivered to the USN at BosNY and commissioned in the original configuration. (She was the 14th GEARING class unit commissioned) I have notes on the Anti-Kamikaze program upgrades for this class, but can't lay my hands on them right now. But, I'm pretty sure given the date she was commissioned, USS EVERTT F. LARSON likely went on a shakedown cruise and upon her return went into BosNY for conversion to a DDR. From photos ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0583005.jpg ... , you can see that she was painted in Ms 21 (likely 5-N not NG) when delivered. In other words, EVERTT F. LARSON was only in the original configuration for a couple of months in early 1945.

The USS GOODRICH (DD-831), a sister of EVERETT F. LARSON built at BIW right after her (she was the 16th GEARING commissioned). Like her BIW sister, she was delivered in the original configuration and was also painted in Ms 21. ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0583114.jpg ... She is your best option, since the other two were not in the original configuration as commissioned.

If you would register to this website, you would be able to see images of these two that I could post if they would be of help.

Dear Mr. Davis,

Thank you kindly for your response I definitely plan on building the DD-830 and deciding on the second one to build between the remaining three. Based on the USS Frank Knox DD-742 1/700 kit by Takom.

What I wish to know boils down to "can I build the model of any of the aforementioned ships based on the kit with minimal alterations?". Hence the inquiry on specs.

Just,

Before I spend a lot of time doing detailed Research for you on your question, I need more info. What are your plans for knowing this info on the four GEARINGS you list? Are you planning on modeling all four or trying to decide on which to build? Or do you have other reasons?

Three of the four GEARINGS in your list were converted to what were eventually nomenclatured as DDR's. The Radar Picket conversions were done on 24 units. They were selected and ordered converted in two 12 unit batches. The three DDR units you have listed ... DD-830, 831, and 880 ... were all from the second batch of 12. The selected units for DDR conversion were built at two yards, either Bath Iron Works or at Consolidated Steel, Orange, TX. All of the units were converted or completed conversion at either Boston or Norfolk Navy Yards. The fourth unit on your list was completed as a straight destroyer. Since you have units from each category in your list, answers will vary.

Your question asks for info "AS OF SPECIFIC DATES", which correspond to when these destroyers were commissioned, which doesn't mean when they were completed. Some GEARING DDR units were completed as straight destroyers, went on shakedown and then went to one of the two selected conversion yards. Other units as the program progressed, went direct to the conversion yards and had some of the conversion done at the builder's yard, like deleting some equipment/armament. So your question will take some digging.

Camo would be either Ms 21 or Ms 22 with either the purple-blue or neutral-gray paints. It is debatable for each unit as to which unit was painted to which paint and when.

Good day and Merry Christmas/Happy New Year to everyone!

I would like to humbly ask for your help in confirming some Gearing-class ships specs.
Navsource images on these aren't numerous or comprehensive enough, so I would be most grateful for any info regarding weaponry, fitting out (AA, Torpedo tubes etc.) and camouflage present on the following ships:
USS Everett F. Larson DD-830 as of April 6, 1945;
USS Goodrich DD-831 as of April 21, 1945;
USS Fred T. Berry DD-858 as of May 18, 1945;
USS Dyess DD-880 as of May 26, 1945.
I am especially concerned about the camouflage, because 1) what I found on the Ship Camouflage website doesn't seem to be the case on the photos available to me, 2) Navy Blue in 1945 is known to have been substituted with Navy Gray, same for Deck Blue and Deck Gray, and I really can't tell on black and white photos, which is which.

Thank you all in advance and happy holidays once more!

[quote="Maarten Sch�nfeld"][quote="TZoli"]I've been asked to draw the Gearing class Destroyer USS Keppler in her FRAM II form, and I have difficulty finding drawings of the Hedgehog Anti-Submarine Projector drawings (preferably the Mark 15) of side and top views. Does anybody have such drawings?[/quote]
I would receommend to trawl the volumes of John Lambert on naval weapons, I believe these plans must be somewhere in there (but I don't have those here, so I cannot tell where exactly...)[/quote]

Nope, Naval Weapons of WW2 by John Campbell and British Naval Weapons of World War Two, Volume I: Destroyer Weapons by John Lambert both lacks drawings of this weapon.

[quote="TZoli"]I've been asked to draw the Gearing class Destroyer USS Keppler in her FRAM II form, and I have difficulty finding drawings of the Hedgehog Anti-Submarine Projector drawings (preferably the Mark 15) of side and top views. Does anybody have such drawings?[/quote]
I would receommend to trawl the volumes of John Lambert on naval weapons, I believe these plans must be somewhere in there (but I don't have those here, so I cannot tell where exactly...)

I've been asked to draw the Gearing class Destroyer USS Keppler in her FRAM II form, and I have difficulty finding drawings of the Hedgehog Anti-Submarine Projector drawings (preferably the Mark 15) of side and top views. Does anybody have such drawings?

Max,

Knowing which "USN Ships" with Mk 12 and/or Mk 12/22 radars were first to arrive in the Pacific Theatre is a big task. Even for just destroyers it isn't an easy answer. How do you count the first units on the "West Coast" with Mk 12 (most units in this category were built on the West Coast), but not yet in the "War Zones", that count gives you different answers.

About two dozen of the last 30 completed FLETCHER's got Mk 12 radar (starting in January 1944, USS HEYWOOD L. EDWARDS (DD-663) built at BosNY, appears to be the first trial installation and serial installs of Mk 12 started a month or two after) and then had added the Mk 22 radars in mid-1944, or had both installed at completion. Then others completed in early 1944 with Mk 4, but were upgraded with Mk 12 and/or with Mk 22 before going to the war zones.

The SUMNER's completions overlap the last completed FLETCHER's, but most of the early commissioned units served in the Atlantic until they worked out the bugs in the design (mostly revising the bridge layout) and "most" were updated to Mk 12/22 radars before going to the Pacific.

As for the heavy units (Battleships, Carriers, and Cruisers), I don't have detailed info on them. But, I'm not surprised that frontline units in September 1944, had yet to have the Mk 22 installed. From my records for the FLETCHER's, the "early" Mk 22 installations started in July 1944. As for which heavy units "may" have had Mk 22 w/o Mk 22 radars, I have no idea.

Thank you Rick.

As far as you know, the first destroyers to have the Mk12/22 radars in the Pacific theatre, were the A.M. Sumner class or were they fitted earlier to units of the Fletcher class (maybe after a mid-war overhaul)?

From photo I have been able to find, it seems that only a few fast battleships had the new FC radar pair (Mk 12/22) installed at the time of the operations against Palau in september 1944, but no carriers or cruisers of Task Force 38 had them yet.

EDIT: it seems that cruiser CL-64 VINCENNES already had the Mk12/22 radars since mid 1944. But no carriers with Mk12/22.

Cheers
Max

Max,

As the SUMNER's were entering service, there was a transition from the Mk 4 to the Mk 12 and eventually addition of the Mk 22 with the Mk 12 Fire Control Radar. The Mk 22 lagged installation of the Mk 12 by a few months. Some units got the Mk 12, operated for a period of time and received the Mk 22 when it was available. The first few units completed in late 1943 and early 1944, initially had Mk 4 radars. But, soon during upgrades (as they modified the bridge a few times), they were upgraded with Mk 12. I "believe" that all had Mk 12 prior to arriving in the Pacific. Also, from photos I have scanned of SUMNERS; USS INGRAHAM (DD-694) and USS COOPER (DD-695) had Mk 22 added prior to going to the Pacific. USS BARTON (DD-722), USS WALKE (DD-723), and USS LAFFEY (DD-724) were upgraded with Mk 22 at BosNY in August 1944, USS O'BRIEN (DD-725) had the Mk 12/22 pair in 1945, and USS MEREDITH (DD-726) was lost off Normandy with just Mk 12 (no Mk 22) installed. USS De Haven (DD-727) had Mk 12, but no Mk 22 in April 1945. USS MANSFIELD (DD-728), USS BLUE (DD-744), and USS BRUSH (DD-745) completed with Mk 12, and had Mk 22 installed by early 1945 (when and where would take some digging).

Many of the early SUMNER class units were updated on the East Coast prior to heading to the Pacific. But, others were upgraded on the West Coast or at PHNY prior to heading to the "War Zone". Many got their RCM suites at PHNY.

Hi,
I would like to know if all the destroyers of the Allen Sumner class had the radars Mk12/22 fitted when they were deployed to pacific in late 1944.
I have been able to see that DD-729 L.K. Swenson, DD-731 Maddox, DD-746 Taussig, DD-747 S.N. Moore had them fitted already in july-august 1944.
Anyway I am not sure if other ships of DesRon 61 had both radars fitted (i.e. DD-727 De Heaven, DD-728 Mansfield, DD-744 Blue, DD-745 Brush that were completed earlier than the above mentioned ships). DD-745 Brush seem that had not their installed at the time of delivery (of course it is possible that Mk22 was fitted later as upgrade).
I assume that all ships completed later had the Mk12/22 pair installed.
Ships of DesRon 60 (DD-692-695 and 722-726) were probably not fitted with Mk 22 (A. Sumner had not Mk22 when damaged by kamikaze).

Thank you
Max