The Ship Model Forum

Hi Sutho,

We will keep all paints available until stock levels run out, as well as the new paints arriving for a June shipment.

Hi,

I have updated the post in the traders' section here with that:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=167118&p=739361#p739361

On the graphic which a few people have now jokingly dubbed "the periodic table" it's *almost* final. We're still working on Flotta shades and trowel-on deck coverings (including the brand name "Semtex") in the background but these will be available a bit later.

Believe it or not, we have had a number of folks asking about how to get the old colours, in some cases because they have something half-built and ran out, or in others because they've already got a collection in the old colours and prefer them all uniform rather than move to the new colours. For that reason we have concluded that existing stocks are viable and can remain in circulation. Plenty people still seem to want it.

SovereignHobbies wrote:That is my understanding too. I don't doubt however that a great deal of photographic material and cinefilm is hoarded or lying in landfill sites taken by people who are now no longer with us, and the relatives either had no idea or simply didn't see any value in the contents.

I saw your updated paint chart on Facebook, can we all assume that this is the final product and if so I have a few questions.

1. In order to update my own supply are there any paints that you did not change that were the same as WEM or not so much different that required changing?

2. Will there be a recall of existing paints with I think Creative Models in Australia in order for us to get the newer versions when they arrive?

That is my understanding too. I don't doubt however that a great deal of photographic material and cinefilm is hoarded or lying in landfill sites taken by people who are now no longer with us, and the relatives either had no idea or simply didn't see any value in the contents.

I think the longest period was 75 years, so that's nearly fully over? I think the final Bismarck material was partly under a 75yr embargo...

While we are on the subject about research and archives, are there still WWII documents, films, photos and anything at all still subject to restrictions that mean they cannot be released to the public until a certain amount of time has elapsed or are all documents, films and photos from the war completely unclassified now?

Hi All

Hi Jamie, no problem you're welcome. Yes I'm afraid we built up our hopes on that file but to no avail!

Looking forward to your release of the camo colours my 'add to basket' finger is itching!

Best wishes
Cag.

Thank you,

I recall it was your good self who had the Tennant file now. I do remember the Confidential Book referenced though - it was C.B.3016 dated to 1937. I never did hear back from Portsmouth about whether they had a copy of that in London. It may have been a wild goose chase anyway though because the wording Tennant used was "mentioned in" which suggests without actually C.B.3016/37 that it doesn't dwell too much on the subject or go in to much detail.

Chances are that it would end up like that useless British Standard purchased last year just to discover there was nothing in it that we didn't already know about Pattern 370(A) and Pattern 371 Blue-black Pastes

Hi All

The Captain Tennant reference is in a file concerning the 'contrast' camo scheme applied to HMS Repulse designed by an officer on board ship. It was designed purely to try to confuse inclinometers etc.

The two tones to be used were under debate,and Tennant referenced an pre war Admiralty document that considered a grey between Home Fleet and Foreign Stations grey, this was a tone that might be considered in the scheme if neccessary. The document comes with a sketch showing the proposed scheme if applied to Repulse, Hood, Nelson and Furious (two tone scheme).

The 507b paint was oil based with enamel and in some IWM images (I think one of either Nelson or Rodneys crew painting the turrets is a good example) of the preparation, there are seen small hammers in use to rough up the surface, as well as washing etc. This hammered surface appears tonally darker in these images which might throw us off a little.

The well known image of the crew painting Hood's after screen near X turret shows a light tone being applied over a darker tone. It has been proposed somewhere IIRC this is 507b medium grey being painted over 507a dark grey?


Research shows that 507a and 507b were the same tone, the only difference being whether enamel was added or not. Therefore I'd make an educated guess that it's perhaps more likely that in the Hood image we simply see a darkened rough hammered surface being covered by a similar tone of fresh paint?


The black and white images we have are lovely, but boy can they deceive us sometimes!

Best wishes
Cag.

The only definite steer on emergency grey is documented in Section V here which you've probably already read:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/ ... 8652758831

The gist of this is repeated in (I think) two other documents in 1943 and then again in 1945.

I am wondering if Hood Association know something we don't know or are overlooking because I keep seeing on their painting section the terms "emergency paint", "temporary medium grey", "patchy grey", and so on. I cannot copy and past and quote due to copyright settings on their website. It is as if the author writing the piece knew full well that 507A was Home Fleet Grey and that there was a matt and gloss finish of the same scheme. As EJ says above they make it clear that it was a uniform scheme by the battle with Bismarck. It will be interesting to keep watching this one.

Something is ringing a bell here... I *think* (will need to confirm) that we may have a copy of a memo which *may* have been from Capt. Tennant of HMS Repulse musing over how quickly the Home Fleet Grey paints in use at the time (this will be circa 1940 I think) darkened.

The context of the letter/memo I am thinking of was along the lines of "shouldn't we consider making a lighter paint such that it was the shade of Home Fleet Grey most of the time, rather than only for a few days after painting it on?"

I recall seeing no response or follow up on the subject though.

Never the less, it would surprise me not at all that fresh linseed oil paint contrasted with older linseed oil paint - particularly on areas high up that are exposed to boiler emissions even forward of the funnels when stationary or at low speed or in typical UK-locale strong winds which aren't too fussy about which way the ship is trying to leave its exhaust fumes behind.

Actually the Hood site is not following the latest research by Sovereign Hobbies yet, and the colours themselves follow from the Snyder & Short charts. So sooner or later the HMS Hood site too will have to go through the latest material and colour and adapt their web page accordingly.

Photographs from early 1941 do indeeed show very large contrast changes between various turrets and the superstructure (A turret very light, B-turret and the spotting top very dark) and this is an example:
Note that by the time she was sunk most of these contrast differences had all been painted out with the exception of the spotting top and DCT. So I do wonder with the emergency mix of AP507A and AP507C the crew might just have mixed it poorly. Minor contrast differences are observed all over the ship, though none as large as on the main turrets.

Corticene was probably present on the decks of the main superstructure but there is very little footage; the colour films released over the past years seem to suggest just that? Might also have been semtex and the (main steel) decks do appear to be very light in tone.

EJFoeth wrote:Normally I'd say, no, the deck is a much darker AP507A. But when I look at this I see no difference between the deck and the rest of the ship. Hmmmm...

deck.jpg

For what its worth the HMS Hood association is adamant that the ship was painted entirely in 507B with A turret in 507C and B turret and housing in 507A at time of loss. They describe the 507B painting as a "temporary medium grey paint scheme" and seem to be up to date on their website with what Sovereign is doing with their paints and what research they have done.

http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models ... dpaint.htm

Further they seem to have photos from the wreck of Hood that they claim confirm for them that the ship was painted in 507B.

The link is above and seems to go into great detail about the paint and what evidence they have to support their conclusions.

They claim most of the steel decks or lower decks were corticone.

mister me wrote:

Thanks to both of you regarding this.

Now that we have some new information re HMS Belfast is it time we started a HMS Belfast camo thread??

Needed !!

Created and in the camouflage & coatings section. I have even drawn a picture of the ship we can all work on.

I hope Sovereign does not mind the use of their colours to work on the ship and figure out if the references are correct and also when the scheme changed.

Thanks to both of you regarding this.

Now that we have some new information re HMS Belfast is it time we started a HMS Belfast camo thread??

Needed !!

dick wrote:

SovereignHobbies wrote:I think Dick told me that when painting Belfast for display the IWM somehow believed that buying paint to BS381C specs would be cheaper than having it matched to other colours, hence Belfast now is painted in Dark and Light Admiralty Greys, PRU Blue etc.

This forum software is a bit long in the tooth now so I can't tag Richard to double check, but I'm sure we discussed that over a nice cold pint of beer near Duxford last July!

That is right - I did!

For reasons of economy Belfast is painted today in off-the-shelf BS381C maritime paints: #632 Dark Admiralty grey, #636 PR Blue, #697 Light Admiralty grey and #627 Light Aircraft grey

Thanks to both of you regarding this.

Now that we have some new information re HMS Belfast is it time we started a HMS Belfast camo thread??

SovereignHobbies wrote:I think Dick told me that when painting Belfast for display the IWM somehow believed that buying paint to BS381C specs would be cheaper than having it matched to other colours, hence Belfast now is painted in Dark and Light Admiralty Greys, PRU Blue etc.

This forum software is a bit long in the tooth now so I can't tag Richard to double check, but I'm sure we discussed that over a nice cold pint of beer near Duxford last July!

That is right - I did!

For reasons of economy Belfast is painted today in off-the-shelf BS381C maritime paints: #632 Dark Admiralty grey, #636 PR Blue, #697 Light Admiralty grey and #627 Light Aircraft grey

That's the file corrected in a few obvious places now. I turned the colour table near the end round 90deg and enlarged it to fill a page. It's a little clearer now as a result.

I think Dick told me that when painting Belfast for display the IWM somehow believed that buying paint to BS381C specs would be cheaper than having it matched to other colours, hence Belfast now is painted in Dark and Light Admiralty Greys, PRU Blue etc.

This forum software is a bit long in the tooth now so I can't tag Richard to double check, but I'm sure we discussed that over a nice cold pint of beer near Duxford last July!