The Ship Model Forum

[quote="BB62vet"]TZ,

Very nice rendition of the WORCHESTER - I've always liked this class of cruiser - you've captured her very well!!

Hank[/quote]

Thanks, I've used Roanoke's as finished plans as a basis and edited the drawing based on photos of Worcester. Sadly these two cruisers decommissioned in 1958/59 and not brought back for service. I think there were a few plans for missile conersions in the 60's?

TZ,

Very nice rendition of the WORCHESTER - I've always liked this class of cruiser - you've captured her very well!!

Hank

Here is my drawing of the USS Worcester as looked like in around 1958 shortly before her decommissioning:
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/Worcester-Class-as-looked-like-in-1958-986017255
[img]https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/08aa4d77-0718-40f2-bb4a-c61352d22946/dgb1rs7-f7e63b32-2159-4b2e-bc27-52beccd6758c.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzA4YWE0ZDc3LTA3MTgtNDBmMi1iYjRhLWM2MTM1MmQyMjk0NlwvZGdiMXJzNy1mN2U2M2IzMi0yMTU5LTRiMmUtYmMyNy01MmJlY2NkNjc1OGMucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.J7VfZ4W4t_SZsa0CctIHI8pyHOyvYB80K7rLstmkvbg[/img]

I just sent you an email.

HMS

Ahh yes I know this, though it is incomplete but a good source. Though I thought of cold war era weapons "catalog".

[quote="Ian Roberts"]Here are extracts from OP 1112 "Gun Mount Catalogue" dated 15 Feb 1951, with views and drawings of all 3"/50 RF mount types: http://shipbucket.com/references/OP/

Drawings of the single mount are in the 3rd PDF[/quote]

Thank you very much!!! This is what I was needed!
Are there more such gun and mounting related pdfs avaiable for download?

Here are extracts from OP 1112 "Gun Mount Catalogue" dated 15 Feb 1951, with views and drawings of all 3"/50 RF mount types: http://shipbucket.com/references/OP/

Drawings of the single mount are in the 3rd PDF

Tzoli,

Only photo I could find is of ROANOKE (CL-145) and this may/may not help as details are still vague in this view -
[attachment=1]CL-145_3.jpg[/attachment]
and here is a view of a single 3in/50 mount on a destroyer (courtesy of Rick E. Davis) -
[attachment=0]Sgl 3in50 Mount wMk. 34 FC RADAR_2 Clipped.JPG[/attachment]

Hope those help!

Hello!
I wish to draw the Worcester class (Top and side view) in her mid-late 1950's state (after the removal of the Oerlikon guns)
and I wish to ask if anybody have clsoe-ups or even drawings of the 3"/50 RF Mark 22 guns in the single Mark 34 mounting?
Worcester had two of them in her stern position but other ship classes carried them as well. At least the 1960's Asheville-class gunboats had them in fully enclosed mountings but others should have it as well as well as maybe some Canadian ships.

Phil,

That's one thing we'll never know about - that organization probably employed thousands of people thru the years. Who knew? right? I remember in grade school kids picking a small fragment of white paint off the sills of the classroom windows and chewing on them - no one knew back then - much less running behind the DDT truck in the summer - duh@!!

Hank

Hank,

I always cringed when I saw those guys rubbing on the paint with rags, and even with their hands when painting some parts! It almost certainly was lead based paint!

Phil

Dr. PR wrote: [quote]But we also saved up spent brass shell casings from naval gunfire support in Vietnam and traded them for hull paint jobs when we went into Hong Kong - not your standard procedure. Who knows what paint the folks in the sampans used?
[/quote]

Ah, Yes - Mary Su - a multi-million dollar organization started after the war by one woman. Became a multi-faceted business from sampans - painting the hull, cleaning out the scullery at meals, doing laundry for the crew, all sorts of things while anchored out in Hong Kong harbor. We traded brass and garbage for these services - and the paint was applied with rags - we got the full treatment in 1966 when we spent a week there when I was aboard STODDARD (DD-566). Who knows what or where the paint came from!

Hank

Rick,

The OK City CLG-5 was a light gray with no blue tones. Other than that I do not really know the color name. Along the line I came to think it was "Ocean Gray" because of the quotes I posted below. Back then they were still using leaded paint, and the light gray became very light chalky gray with time.

As I said, it was crummy paint because we needed something for the large crew to do to keep them busy. Chip, red lead, paint, chip, red lead, paint, ...

To add to the confusion the ship was in WESTPAC for ten consecutive years. We could get USN paint from the supply depots in Yokosuka, Japan (home port) and Subic Bay in the Philippines. But we also saved up spent brass shell casings from naval gunfire support in Vietnam and traded them for hull paint jobs when we went into Hong Kong - not your standard procedure. Who knows what paint the folks in the sampans used?

So the best I can say is that the ship was light gray.

****

Just about every discussion of ships paint schemes (USS Arizona, USS Juneau, etc.) I have read turns into "maybe it was this or maybe it was that." The fact is that ships were painted with whatever they had on hand, and the colors were sometimes mixed on board, not always producing the same colors on different ships. I think a best guess is the best we can do for most ships.

Phil

The "FSN#" correspondences to the Fed Std 595 number. Which in some model paints #26270 is called Light Ghost Gary used on some US Aircraft as well.

Over the years there were several "Ocean Grays". There was an Ocean Gray in early 1941 in neutral gray paint with the initial WWII camo schemes. Then in mid-1941 a revised Ocean Gray 5-O made with the Purple-Blue paints was introduced and used for much of the war. Due to a shortage of the Blue Pigment used in the Purple-Blue Paints (5-N, 5-O, 5-H), the USN started to develop/switch to the Neutral Grays (#7 Navy Gray 5-N-NG, #17 Ocean Gray 5-O-NG, and #27 Haze Gray 5-H-NG)in very late 1944. The new paints weren't available until about February 1945 and even then "EXISTING STOCKS" were to be used first. Trying to figure out which ships were painted with what paints in 1945 leads to many arguments. :scratch:

I didn't bother mentioning 5-O use in the 1950's because I wasn't sure how often it was actually used and when/where. I took it that #27 Haze Gray (in a few different formulations as the "color" remained the same, but the paint ingredients changed as lead was removed and other properties were incorporated, changing the faded appearance) was used almost universally. Your statement that your ship was painted in Ocean Gray is the first I have heard confirming its use. I have some images (scanned B&W photos) that I have suspected could have been painted in #17 Ocean Gray, but given variations in tones with B&W photos, I couldn't confirm that it wasn't due to film/print processing.

The use of #17 Ocean Gray may explain this image I scanned at NARA back in early June of US BOSTON (CAG-1) about 1956, early in her career as a "Guided Missile Cruiser".

[url=http://s131.photobucket.com/user/TincanREDavis/media/TincanREDavis001/z80GK-20612-CAG1-1956.lr_zpskambalnm.jpg.html][img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/TincanREDavis001/z80GK-20612-CAG1-1956.lr_zpskambalnm.jpg[/img][/url]

Rick,

Somewhere I found this information about post-war paint schemes:

"After 1946-47 almost all vessels adopted Measure 13, solid haze gray (5-H) as peacetime paint.

"After March 1953 they used either Measure 27 (same as 13 above) or 17 (also known as 14) which uses Ocean Gray vice Haze Gray. For both these measures all steel decks and all other horizontal surfaces shall be painted either smooth dark gray deck type A of non-skid dark gray deck type B. All overheads and the undersides of all other external horizontal surfaces shall be painted glossy or base white."

I don't know how long this lasted, but the OK City was not painted the WWII bluish Haze Gray, but appeared to be painted Ocean Gray in the 1960s and 1970s. Wooden decks were not painted.

However, it appears there was an Ocean Gray in late 1941, and I do not know if it was the same color as the Ocean Gray of 1953.

For the current colors about ten years ago (Fed-Std-595) the paints were:

Paint, epoxy polyamide, Haze Gray, Formula 151, Type IV, MIL-DTL-24441/30A, FSC/Area 8010
Paint, epoxy polyamide, Haze Gray, Formula 151, Type III, MIL-DTL-24441/21A, FSC/Area 8010

Vertical surfaces: Haze Gray No 27, FSN#26270
Decks: Deck Gray FSN#26008

You can take these MIL spec numbers to your local paint store and they should be able to match them.

****

In the 1970s our ships' weather deck surfaces were painted with cheap paints that essentially washed off with repeated exposure to salt water. This meant that we had to repaint constantly, and that gave the deck division people something to do (we had a crew of hundreds of men to man the weapons systems, and they didn't have much to do when we were not at General Quarters).

But in the missile house we used epoxy paint that lasted for years without cracking or chipping. That was because we had to offload explosives before painting, and that wasn't convenient. Eventually the white epoxy paint turned pale yellow.

Phil

Ms 27 came into being in 1953 with the first "USN Camouflage Instructions" since 1945. Prior to that the all Haze Gray camo scheme was known as Ms 13. Now then what is less clear is when the formula for #27 Haze Gray 5-H changed from the 1945 version. Some sources say that the new paint, that MAY have carried into the modern era, was introduced in 1952 (or 1953 with the new Camo Instructions).

A recent NavSea briefing presented in 2013, released to the public, on USN "Topside Coating History" says;

-- That "modern" Haze Gray paint was introduced in 1952.

-- In June 1963, a NAVSHIPS study report said that "Semi-Gloss Haze Gray" was best while painting masts and stack tops black to hide soot was recommended and adopted.

-- In September 1989, a NAVSEA study report on visual tests instructed that reduced contrast is accomplished by the entire topside being painted Haze Gray, Light Gray, and Ocean Gray. No black masts.

-- In September 1992, a new NAVSEA "Camouflage Manual for Surface Ship Concealment" was published. It required Haze Gray and countershading.

-- In the 1990's new paints with "Low Solar Absorbance (LSA) Topside Coatings" were developed for USN ship use and became required in 2002.

All Military paints have changed in recent years for environmental reasons and to incorporate other features beyond visual. So is the paint the same as Ms 27 was introduced, NO. Is it the same "color" today, I don't know.

Bottomline, in your case for USS WORCESTER in 1958, Ms 27 would be accurate. Drawings before 1953 would likely show Ms 13, which also used Haze Gray but with a different formula.

Thanks gents. Fabulous info as usual!

Here's the final drawing of the series (CL-144 in 1958):

[img]http://shipbucket.com/drawings/7674/file[/img]

Question: is it accurate to continue referring to the overall haze grey as "Measure US 27"? I've seen this in a few books (one that comes to mind is Sumrall's "Sumner-Gearing-class Destroyers").

Rick,

Thanks. I forgot the AS-570/SLR. We had all of these and quite a few more antennas on the OK City while I was aboard in the 1970s. 51 different antennas on the forward radar tower alone!

You are right that the ECM antennas were mainly used for locating RF emissions. When we sailed up and down the Vietnam/China/Korea coast our ECM guys logged every emission and obtained bearings multiple times as we steamed by. This gave us a map location of every radio and radar we heard, and also gave us a recorded "fingerprint" for each transmitter - each individual unit has unique characteristics that allowed us to track mobile transmitters from place to place. Since many transmitters were associated with specific weapons systems we were able to determine the positions of weapons located far inland.

There was another highly classified (in the 1970s) trick the ECM guys used. Aircraft parked on runways reflected local radar and radio signals just like everything else around them, and this was just part of the background clutter. But when jet engines were started up the compressor at the front began rotating and modulating the reflected signals. This produced a very characteristic signal that was different for each engine type, and gave the direction to the aircraft. This was called Jet Engine Modulation. In some cases it allowed the identification of the specific aircraft type.

On numerous occasions our ECM guys detected MiGs starting up at the NVN airfields and we would be ready with our missile guidance radars before they ever left the ground. We also vectored Combat Air Patrols to intercept the planes as they climbed after take off.

We also had a highly classified (back then) Soviet IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) unit in our CIC (Combat Information Center) that allowed us to interrogate Soviet built aircraft to distinguish them from other radar contacts.

ECM also listened for specific threats, especially anti-ship missiles, surface ships and boats and aircraft to give warning of an attack. ECM was an extremely important part of a ship's defensive systems.

Knowing all the tricks that we were using fifty years ago - without computers - you just have to wonder what they are capable of today!

Phil

Phil beat me to it and he has ID most of the antennas correctly of course. I can add that all of the ECM antennas were part of the standard AN/SLR-2 ECM Suite installed on most USN warships at the time (down to at least the destroyer size vessels) for detection of RF signals, not jamming. The antennas provide detection, direction, identification (hopefully), and some range information of electronic emissions around the ship. The domed antenna is likely the "AS-570/SLR", used in conjunction with the "AS-571/SLR" and "AS-616/SLR" antennas on larger ships starting in the mid/late 1950's. "AS-616/SLR" was added in the late 1950s to cover an even lower frequency band than the AS-570/571 pair did or in some cases replaced the "AS-571/SLR" antenna. The AN/SLR-2 system started to appear in 1952 and was upgraded several times afterwards. After 1958 the USN started to put a dome over the "AS-616/SLR" (and it appears also the "AS-571/SLR" antenna) antenna as well. I assume that was done to reduce maintenance on the rotating antenna.

Here is a cropped view of USS WORCESTER (CL-144) taken in September 1956 at a different angle than the image you posted. Another rotating ECM antenna and several smaller antennas associated with AN/SLR-2 ECM Suite can be seen in this view.

[url=http://s131.photobucket.com/user/TincanREDavis/media/TincanREDavis001/zCL144x31bcrop-Sep56_zpsadk31leh.jpg.html][img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/TincanREDavis001/zCL144x31bcrop-Sep56_zpsadk31leh.jpg[/img][/url]

Here are a couple of views of a USN destroyer from this period showing the antennas used on the ship's ECM suite. As far as I can tell, USN Destroyers only used the "AS-570/SLR" and "AS-571/SLR" or "AS-616/SLR" pair of antennas as part of their ECM Suite. In the early 1950's when AN/SLR-2 was first installed on destroyers, only "AS-570/SLR and AS-571/SLR" antennas were installed. By the late 1950s, the "AS-571/SLR" antennas was replaced by (on most, but not all units) the "AS-616/SLR" antenna. I have scanned a lot of antenna survey photos of FLETCHER class destroyers in the 1950s, and I find them to be confusing at times. Some appear to have antenna ID "ERRORS", so which ones had "AS-571/SLR or AS-616/SLR" antenna installed is in question.

[url=http://s131.photobucket.com/user/TincanREDavis/media/TincanREDavis001/zDD519x51-Oct58.lr_zpsoyw9vtgc.jpg.html][img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/TincanREDavis001/zDD519x51-Oct58.lr_zpsoyw9vtgc.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://s131.photobucket.com/user/TincanREDavis/media/TincanREDavis001/zDD519x52-Oct58.lr_zpsup8wzv3b.jpg.html][img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p303/TincanREDavis/TincanREDavis001/zDD519x52-Oct58.lr_zpsup8wzv3b.jpg[/img][/url]

The "Derby ECM" is a NT-66131 antenna used with electronics countermeasures receiving equipment. 24 inches diameter (including ground plane reflectors) and 8 1/4 inches high (the dome).

The "sword" antenna looks like a NT-66132 antenna used with countermeasures receiving equipment. 67 5/8 inch wide, 38 inches deep.

66131 and 66132 apparently were used in pairs.

The rectangular "??" antenna looks like an AS-571/SLR antenna high gain directional antenna also used with countermeasures receiving equipment. 49 3/8 inches high and 21 3/8 inches wide.

The "??" dome could be another AS-571/SLR. They were often under a dome cover. I have estimated the dome to be 65 inches high and 49 inches diameter.

It probably was an AS-616A/SLR rotatable two band array used with electronic countermeasures equipment - a transmitter I think. 68 inches high and 45 1/2 inches diameter. These were often located under a dome cover. I have estimated the dome to be 65 inches high and 49 inches diameter.

It might also be an AS-899B/SLR four band elliptically polarized rotating direction finding antenna used with electronic countermeasures receiving equipment. But this dome is smaller diameter and has a smaller dome on top (in the 1970s).

Phil