The Ship Model Forum

by **Victorious** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:09 am

Andy G wrote:
NucSub wrote:...Also, anything that helps keep construction prices down makes it more paletable to the CinC.
There's three big benefits to scratchbuilding, as far as I can see.

One is that it answers the same need that some of us have for Looking In Skips. There are people out there, believe me, who can walk past a skip and not look into it! Can you imagine? Well, I'm not one of them...I'm an inveterate Skip Looker Inner. Geoff ('Vic') is absolutely right - finding something that will do on a scratchbuild is a pleasure in and of itself. You get the benefits of recycling, develop an eye for the Good Stuff, and can laugh at the sellers & those who buy the bits that you can make yourself.

Which brings me to the third point: I'm sure we all hanker for the more unusual subject, or a familiar one at a different scale, that simply don't exist as kits. Scratchbuilding allows us to make what we want. Ron's Iron Duke - possibly one of the most iconic vessels of the Great War - is (somehow!) an unusual subject. Other than the Deans Marine offering, I know of no kits covering any RN capital ships of that era suitable for use with R/C (granted, there's a few commercial hulls out there, but no kits) and the only way to recreate one of these fantastic vessels is to do it yourself.

Andy G

Well put there Andy, your a man after my own heart. This is what makes scratchbuilding that much more interesting, by using something that you can adapt into something resembling a part that looks okay on your model.

There are a lot out there who would disagree about using odds and sods for making up certain parts and I am having a dig at the purists here.

I build models for my own pleasure and try to get them looking as realistic as possible within my own budget. I would just love to be able to go out and buy proper fittings for this and that, but money does'nt grow on trees.

The Vic has lot's of items built into it that are just things I have come across when visiting d.i.y. stores. Look amongst some of the crafts in the large Hobbycraft stores, there are things like very small eyelets made from thin brass wire, used in jewlery making, coloured glass beads from a pin head size to pea size, I have used all these sorts of things for my modeling.

Aluminium fine mesh is ideal material for building Radar, grated walkways and deck gratings. A sheet of this about 1 foot square costs less than �2 from Halfords or good motor accessory shops, it's real use is for car body repairs.

I could go on and on telling you what other items I have used, but it's all about using your own imagination and trying things out, to see if it will suit what you are trying to acheive. If it looks good, then use it.

by **Andy G** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:49 am

NucSub wrote:...Also, anything that helps keep construction prices down makes it more paletable to the CinC.

There's three big benefits to scratchbuilding, as far as I can see.

One is that it answers the same need that some of us have for Looking In Skips. There are people out there, believe me, who can walk past a skip and not look into it! Can you imagine? Well, I'm not one of them...I'm an inveterate Skip Looker Inner. A couple of years ago I found a dozen 3' by 1' sheets of seasoned mahogany being thrown away. (They were seat bases from a refurbished lecture room at a University.) Naturally they ended up in the boot of my car, and a later light sanding removed thirty years' of graffiti and old chewing gum before they turned into chests and furniture. Geoff ('Vic') is absolutely right - finding something that will do on a scratchbuild is a pleasure in and of itself. You get the benefits of recycling, develop an eye for the Good Stuff, and can laugh at the sellers & those who buy the bits that you can make yourself.

And that's the second point: I have some idea what a 1/72nd scale Dreadnought model might cost me, were one available. The Deans Marine model at 1/96 sells for about GBP 630 in the UK, without running gear. That could easily be 1500 quid at the scale I want, as a kit with motors and running gear, etc. Now I can't afford that; indeed, I'd be in tears if I had to cough that up, but I'm currently completing a home-brewed hull which has cost me - wow! - GBP 30 to date. Granted, it's taken me about a hundred hours to get this far, but my hourly rate is very small on stuff I do for myself!

Which brings me to the third point: I'm sure we all hanker for the more unusual subject, or a familiar one at a different scale, that simply don't exist as kits. Scratchbuilding allows us to make what we want. Ron's Iron Duke - possibly one of the most iconic vessels of the Great War - is (somehow!) an unusual subject. Other than the Deans Marine offering, I know of no kits covering any RN capital ships of that era suitable for use with R/C (granted, there's a few commercial hulls out there, but no kits) and the only way to recreate one of these fantastic vessels is to do it yourself.

Andy G

by **Victorious** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:13 pm

What is worth remembering when you are scratchbuilding large scale model, is "What could I use to make those?"

It is surprising what everyday items we tend to throw away, such as various types of plastic bottle tops and jar lids. The Barbettes of my Marlborough are made up from just such items. I found that three plastic container lids glued together, where just the right height and diameter for the two largest barbettes. Once these were covered all the way round with a thin covering of litho plate, they looked the part, and you end up with a perfect circle too.

You would be surprised what I have managed to use on the Victorious, to substitute certain parts of the superstructure. I have discovered that a certain paint stripping mesh is ideal for safety netting, cut into long narrow strips with a pair of scissors and glued in place with superglue.
Two sheets of this stuff 12" x 6" ( 1.5 mm square net) from a d.i.y store, cost �1 95, enough to make netting to go all round the Vic twice.
Always be on the lookout for things, when you go out shopping, it's surprising what you can find out there that may come in useful.

by **NucSub** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:05 am

Thank you all and please continue.
This is the type of information that is the most useful to me. Not only the materials and methods, most of which you describe in the various scratch building posts, but more importantly the reasoning behind the selections.
I have been wandering my local Hobby Lobby, Home Depot, and Lowes looking at materials, tools, and prices. This continues to provide fuel for the project. Also, anything that helps keep construction prices down makes it more paletable to the CinC.

by **ModelMonkey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:57 pm

I agree with Ron, Andy and "Vic". I used that technique to good effect in building my 55-1/2 inch long, 1/192 scale USS Missouri hull. You can see it under construction here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/vie ... php?t=4683

by **Victorious** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 pm

I think Ron & Andy have covered all of your questions, but I will just add my two cents worth as well.

Regarding balsa planking, this is light, so it helps to keep the weight down, also on flat bottoms and along the sides where it starts to even out to the vrtical, you can use much wider strips, which will speed up the planking process.

Use Waterproof PVA wood glue. It's much cheaper than CA and a large tub will be enough to do several large models. This dosent take all that long to dry, but needs 24 hours for it to set hard and it is stronger than the wood once set. This alone, adds strength to the hull, before you even start adding the firbre glass tissue and resin.

Regarding the framing, 1/8" or 4mm ply is quite adequate for a model such as the Duke or Marlborough and is not too heavy. Make sure you use good quality such as Marine or Birch Ply, stay clear of the cheap stuff.

Hope you have gathered enough info on this for you to make a successful start.

by **Andy G** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:58 am

NucSub wrote:Per suggested reading I have gone thru the builds to date for Marlbourgh, Iron Duke, Dreadnought, and a few others. Very worth the time and effort.
As a result, I have several questions/confirmations to ask.
1. Is there an advantage to planking the hulls with balsa over say basswood or other material?
2. How is the strength, longevity, and durability after glass cloth.
3. Would using a CA glue for planking cause problems? Seems it would speed the planking process if desired.
4. For those of us on this side of the pond 1/8th inch thick is about same as 4mm planks?
5. Frame size reduction to match thickness of planking appears somewhat trial and error on the copier or is there a formula?
I know these are likely simple NewB type questions but thank you all for your input.
V/R.

Excellent questions! Mostly I'm in agreement with Ron:

1. I like to work in my living room/kitchen, and balsa is more user-friendly than harder woods. Also easier to accurately cut and fit. That said, harder woods would inherently give you a stronger hull, if you don't plan to later glass it.

2. A well-made glassed model hull is pretty well stable given the amount of dunkings it'll get over its life, compared to full-size glassed boats "permanently" left in salt water, where osmosis/delamination can be a problem. Strength and durability are extremely high. Repairs straightforward.

3. CA, with a fast grab time, would be way too quick for me. I use PVA to join planks to frames, and also run it along my plank lengths. I'd find CA going off long before I'd done an edge, let alone positioned it on the boat. Agree with Ron regarding the environmental side of things.

4. I wrote this (hopefully handy) conversion tool ages ago: http://personal.strath.ac.uk/a.goddard/converter.swf . One eighth of an inch is 3.175mm.

5. You'd need quite a bit of trial and error to work out the specifics of a particular photocopier - they don't all scale accurately, and not always the same in the X/Y axis. Possibly scanning the frames into a PC and adjusting them (Photoshop, etc.) before reprinting them on a high-quality printer would be better. That said, I drew my frames on card from a 1/72nd scale body plan that I'd made from my source. Each card frame was then thinned at the planking edge by 2mm, by hand, and this new line was the one cut out and transferred to the plywood I used. Tedious? Kind of, but there were only 29 frames to do, and it gave me a good feel for the hull. Cutting the ply was more time-consuming...

Andy G

by **NucSub** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:31 pm

Thank you very much.
Questions well answered.

by **ARH** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:20 pm

NucSub wrote:Per suggested reading I have gone thru the builds to date for Marlbourgh, Iron Duke, Dreadnought, and a few others. Very worth the time and effort.
As a result, I have several questions/confirmations to ask.
1. Is there an advantage to planking the hulls with balsa over say basswood or other material?
2. How is the strength, longevity, and durability after glass cloth.
3. Would using a CA glue for planking cause problems? Seems it would speed the planking process if desired.
4. For those of us on this side of the pond 1/8th inch thick is about same as 4mm planks?
5. Frame size reduction to match thickness of planking appears somewhat trial and error on the copier or is there a formula?
I know these are likely simple NewB type questions but thank you all for your input.
V/R.

Hi, Thanks for reading IRON DUKE.

1 The only advantage is in weight and sanding is easy, you can use what you want , what is at hand.

2 Once the matting has been applied it begins to come a lot stronger, I have hulls that are over 20 years old, no deteriorating.

3 I would not use CA , it will be no quicker if you do it right, and the amount of CA exposure will do you harm over the long term.

4 4mm is the same.

5 When reducing my drawings to get the correct rib size, I first check the beam of the ship and see if it matches the scale rib size, if say it is 6 inch,s across, I take off 2x 1/8 plus the thickness of the fibra glass and paste which should be 1/16 inch each side , so adding these together we have 3/8 inch to take off the ribs, so from 6 inch we have 5 5/8inch,

I hope this helps, ARH

by **NucSub** » Wed May 31, 2006 4:47 pm

Per suggested reading I have gone thru the builds to date for Marlbourgh, Iron Duke, Dreadnought, and a few others. Very worth the time and effort.
As a result, I have several questions/confirmations to ask.
1. Is there an advantage to planking the hulls with balsa over say basswood or other material?
2. How is the strength, longevity, and durability after glass cloth.
3. Would using a CA glue for planking cause problems? Seems it would speed the planking process if desired.
4. For those of us on this side of the pond 1/8th inch thick is about same as 4mm planks?
5. Frame size reduction to match thickness of planking appears somewhat trial and error on the copier or is there a formula?
I know these are likely simple NewB type questions but thank you all for your input.
V/R.

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