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Topic review - Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Greetings everyone. Not to add another tangent, but does anyone know of a reference that might list Exeter's boats at the time of the River Plate? I am thinking of aftermarket improvements but am not good enough with RN craft to be able to recognize types from photos with any sort of fidelity.

*Edit* fixed spelling and adding:

IWEM's photo HU 104427 is of the battle-damaged Exeter arriving in Plymouth. The two boats visible on the starboard side do not match any of the craft available from Black Cat Models or Micro Master at this time. One plan has two different boats (a 35' motor pinnace aft and a 32' Life cutter forward) but the two in the linked photo appear the same. Could this be a 35' motor pinnace, and is there a good reference for RN boats in WWi and WWII?

Related but a bit different - any idea what size of rafts Exeter Carried during the battle?
Post Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
I appreciate your opinions and information, Marteen and Kevin, I just finished fixing the reinforcements on my HMS Exeter (was crossing fingers nobody showed up with different information! HA!)

Marco
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Guest wrote:
Maarten,

Re: Your last sentence.

I agree, until one sees a full hull image of the ship when one can see the illusion that the forward upper row of scuttles is distorted, is fostered by the sheer of the Upper Deck and that of the bow knuckle. The result is not aesthetically pleasing.


I didn't mean the lower row of scuttles is distorted, most of them have been closed or blanked over! But that wasn't uncommon in that period, in many ships during the war (and after) the lower scuttles were seen as a real hazard, both in case of battle but also during heavy weather. More holes in a ship are more risky when something goes wrong. As ventilation systems improved the need for scuttles (natural ventilation) has also been reduced.
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:41 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Maarten,

Re: Your last sentence.

I agree, until one sees a full hull image of the ship when one can see the illusion that the forward upper row of scuttles is distorted, is fostered by the sheer of the Upper Deck and that of the bow knuckle. The result is not aesthetically pleasing.
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:43 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
KevinD wrote:
Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Any other views?
Maarten

Thanks for those pictures, Kevin! They seem to confirm the previous notion. The upper one is a bit hard to read (damn the shadow) but the lower one is very clear.

Also interesting: in the second one the lower row of scuttles is largely reduced, and some are even relocated.
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:45 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
A couple more.


Attachments:
Turrets-3.jpg
Turrets-3.jpg [ 220.42 KiB | Viewed 277 times ]
Turret-4.jpg
Turret-4.jpg [ 261.84 KiB | Viewed 277 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
Any other views?
Maarten


Attachments:
Turrets-1.jpg
Turrets-1.jpg [ 347.94 KiB | Viewed 125 times ]
Turrets-2.jpg
Turrets-2.jpg [ 336.89 KiB | Viewed 125 times ]
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:37 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Marco wrote:
Another doubt I have, about the triangular reinforcements around the barbettes. I know that the ones molded in Trumpeter's kit are wrong, thanks to this forum, but I see there are differences in number and position of the reinforcements between the barbettes of the front turrets. The front turret seems to have 12, sort of even-spaced reinforcement, while the second turret is missing at least one lateral reinforcement, there is a box there instead, and the spacing does not seem to be even, more separated. Not trying to complicate my life, but worth checking. I haven´t been able to find any other good picture of that area. Any thoughts?

Image

Marco

Hi Marco, all,

Thank you for that photo, it is a great surprise for me! I hadn't seen that at all, only of the forward and rear barbettes.

What I'm now guessing from this photo: the 'B' barbette has eight supports, not in the 'cardinal' positions but in between those, and not evenly spaced. They must of course link up to some structure below the deck - which we have no information on at this moment. And you are right that it is also slightly higher than the 'A' barbette.

Any other views?

Maarten
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:42 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
And now I realize, that the barbette of the second turret is taller than the one from the front turret... well, that I will not correct, next time.

Marco
Post Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:57 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Another doubt I have, about the triangular reinforcements around the barbettes. I know that the ones molded in Trumpeter's kit are wrong, thanks to this forum, but I see there are differences in number and position of the reinforcements between the barbettes of the front turrets. The front turret seems to have 12, sort of even-spaced reinforcement, while the second turret is missing at least one lateral reinforcement, there is a box there instead, and the spacing does not seem to be even, more separated. Not trying to complicate my life, but worth checking. I haven´t been able to find any other good picture of that area. Any thoughts?

Image

Marco
Post Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:16 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
KevinD wrote:
Marco wrote:
I noticed somebody adding simulated glass to the bridge windows of an HMS Exeter scale model (another forum). Somebody else remarked that those windows did not have any, and I nodded, of course, I "knew". But now, I am in doubt, after looking at this picture, I see reflection from "glass" ?

I guess these windows had glass that could be opened (to the inside?) or am I wrong? Would be a nice detail to put some sheets of "glass" to some of the windows.

Marco

Hi Marco,

If there was glass in the windows on the sides of the upper bridge, then I have never seen it shown in any historical photos (or if there was, then the windows are always shown open), nor was any glass there on the wreck. Nor did we find any evidence of sliding panels that could have slide open / closed either. (However there were of course panes of glass around the open bridge, although on the wreck many had fallen out.)

The arrows in the collage below point to the relevant areas photographed on the wreck (note; as the u/w photos were taken with a 'fish-eye' lens there is some curvature in the u/w image on right.)

Image #2 is just a close up of the bridge in 1941.

However, and this is a general question to anyone, in image #3 also taken in 1941, what are the small lighter coloured 'circles' that we see ‘in’ (or behind?) three of the windows?


Well thank you for those details! I didn´t know there was glass installed on the open bridge (too tiny to issue in 1/350). I guess the effect of having some structure inside the bridge will provide the desired effect.

By the way, I see that the inner part of doors open on the HMS Exeter are white, but it seems like the interior of the bridge was sort of light or medium blue, is this true? No clue at all.

Marco
Post Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:53 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
My first thought also was the "clear view screen" window:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_view_screen

These were developed in the mid 1930s so they could have been installed. But they were normally on the forward facing windows on an enclosed bridge. If they had been installed the glass around them would also reflect light about the same.

Some ships had windows that hinged up and latched to the overhead. Bus in the US Navy only every other window hinged up and the windows between were fixed.

Open bridges with no protection from the elements were common before and during WWII. Sometimes they had a few glass or plastic windows on the forward facing part, but I can tell you from experience that these don't help much in foul weather!

The side "gallery" as someone called it is an open bridge used during docking, underway replenishment, personnel high lining, or any other operation requiring close maneuvering.

Of all the guesses I have seen I think reflections from air ports (port holes) on the inner bulkhead is the most likely.

Phil
Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:50 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
I know that the answer has/appears to have been arrived at but for what my small amount of change is worth: I would not disagree with Brett Morrow. If the background beyond the photographer is a "big sky" one and the scuttles in the screen of the superstructure inside the "gallery" (possibly part of the flag deck) were closed, the glass in them could well reflect back lighter than the surface they are in. This can be seen in the effect of some of the scuttles in the hull: one or two appear black (open), the other appear lighter (closed).

EJ Foeth questions another possibility; which is some form of sighting equipment in the location: maybe but I believe that unlikely.
The only alternative that I would have offered is that they are reflections of what were known as Kent Clear View screen windows in windows that were later removed; which EXETER had at the forward end of the bridge but then the square pane of the remainder of the glass would also have reflected.

I am afraid that I can't find any good pictures of EXETER in any of my references that would be of help: plenty of her sister-ship (different bridge superstructure). Whatever, the as fitted drawings would be able to confirm or perhaps the ship has an association website that might be of help.
Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
And the answer, even without looking further into the u/w photos, is; yes there are scuttles in that inner bulkhead.

They actually can be seen in an enhanced crop of the photo Marco posted above. :thumbs_up_1:


Attachments:
Inner scuttles Exeter bridge.jpg
Inner scuttles Exeter bridge.jpg [ 51.38 KiB | Viewed 455 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:13 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Brett Morrow wrote:
Was there an inner bulkhead with scuttles behind the open frames?
This perception of glassed windows is also reproduced in many incorrect renditions of Leander class cruisers. The RAN modified Leander class also had open frames with an open avenue between the inner wall and outer skin, I expect Exeter may have been the same.
Even though these scuttles were in shadow, at just the right angle they would reflect light, I have seen stranger things.
Could this not be reflections of those inner scuttles? as per the attachment of Leander.

Re my now underlined above Brett; the answer is (partly) yes, there is a walkway / companionway of what looks to be about 3ft / 1mt wide between those outer 'windows' and the inner bulkhead on Exeter.

However, I'll have to have a play with some of my u/w photos to see if I can bring out some better detail on that inner bulkhead, as that side (port) of the wreck was facing upwards (as she lay on her stbd side), thus silt had built up on it, so nothing readily discernible at first glance to tell if there are scuttles along there on not. Personally I would assume so, but that's just a wild WAG.
Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
I had the same thought. Plus, I do not know what type of sighting equipment on a lower bridge level would 'fit' the height/position of these three spots.
Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Was there an inner bulkhead with scuttles behind the open frames ?
This perception of glassed windows is also reproduced in many incorrect renditions of Leander class cruisers. The RAN modified Leander class also had open frames with an open avenue between the inner wall and outer skin, I expect Exeter may have been the same.
Even though these scuttles were in shadow, at just the right angle they would reflect light, I have seen stranger things.
Could this not be reflections of those inner scuttles? as per the attachment of Leander.


Attachments:
LEANDER INNER WHEELHOUSE WALL.jpg
LEANDER INNER WHEELHOUSE WALL.jpg [ 72.63 KiB | Viewed 500 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:51 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Marco wrote:
I noticed somebody adding simulated glass to the bridge windows of an HMS Exeter scale model (another forum). Somebody else remarked that those windows did not have any, and I nodded, of course, I "knew". But now, I am in doubt, after looking at this picture, I see reflection from "glass" ?

I guess these windows had glass that could be opened (to the inside?) or am I wrong? Would be a nice detail to put some sheets of "glass" to some of the windows.

Marco

Hi Marco,

If there was glass in the windows on the sides of the upper bridge, then I have never seen it shown in any historical photos (or if there was, then the windows are always shown open), nor was any glass there on the wreck. Nor did we find any evidence of sliding panels that could have slide open / closed either. (However there were of course panes of glass around the open bridge, although on the wreck many had fallen out.)

The arrows in the collage below point to the relevant areas photographed on the wreck (note; as the u/w photos were taken with a 'fish-eye' lens there is some curvature in the u/w image on right.)

Image #2 is just a close up of the bridge in 1941.

However, and this is a general question to anyone, in image #3 also taken in 1941, what are the small lighter coloured 'circles' that we see ‘in’ (or behind?) three of the windows?


Attachments:
1 Exeter-bridge-windows.jpg
1 Exeter-bridge-windows.jpg [ 391.21 KiB | Viewed 556 times ]
2 Exeter-Bridge.jpg
2 Exeter-Bridge.jpg [ 190.64 KiB | Viewed 556 times ]
3 Bridge-windows.jpg
3 Bridge-windows.jpg [ 191.95 KiB | Viewed 556 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:35 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Yeah, looks weird to be a reflection, the images look more like doors or something on the inside. I guess I will not use “glass” in my model.

Marco
Post Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all HMS York class (HMS Exeter-WWII) fans  Reply with quote
Are they reflections or just bulkhead features (piping, wiring, portholes) from "behind" the frames? If they were reflections, what would they be reflecting? An adjacent ship?
Post Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:35 pm

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