The Ship Model Forum

Couple pictures of the 150mm cannons turrets metal doors, Graf Spee. The one from Alamy is a pre-war shot, staged, I can´t confirm if it was Graf Spee or not. The other one is Graf Spee, South Atlantic, during WWII, not usual to see the doors closed. Metal doors only purpose must have been only to keep weather out, as the cannons could not be operated with the doors closed, and they were too flimsy to shield the gunners from nothing.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/4VMzAoKl.jpg[/img]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/nbBkENCl.jpg[/img]

Marco

Well I think that you solved the metal or canvas issue related to the secondary armament to the Graf Spee. They were all metal during the war, don’t know when they installed them. Eduard PE for Trumpeter Graf Spee provides the doors.

Marco

Moose, you're linking to your computer's harddrive so we can't see it ;)

I know the question is now settled, but I just thought I would muddy the waters a bit with this pic of one of Gneisenau's 5.9" guns, later in the war, on the Eastern Front!

file:///C:/Users/Joe/Pictures/secondary%20armament.jpg

[quote="Elvis965"][quote="drasticplastic]

I apologize if the pics aren't very good quality. I'm downstairs and my scanner is upstairs, and I don't feel like dragging it down. So I took these pics with my iPhone. :heh:
[/quote][/quote]

Thank you. Those photos were more than clear enough to resolve the great mystery for me.

I appreciate the effort!!!

[quote="drasticplastic]Are you not thinking of the armored covers on the torpedo launchers? They had a roll-up canvas cover over the rear end.[/quote]

Nope...

I apologize if the pics aren't very good quality. I'm downstairs and my scanner is upstairs, and I don't feel like dragging it down. So I took these pics with my iPhone. :heh:

Pictures are from [i]Pocket Battleships of the Deutschland Class[/i] by Gerhard Koop and Klaus-Peter Schmolke.

The first pic is an undated photo of Deutschland/Lutzow, pre war:

[attachment=2]Deutschland Undated.jpg[/attachment]

Rolled canvas, no doors.

The second pic is Deutschland/Lutzow in '45:

[attachment=1]Lutzow 45.jpg[/attachment]

The doors are clearly present now.

This last pic is Graf Spee in '38. No doors. You can't really see any canvas, either, but there clearly aren't any doors.

[attachment=0]Spee 38.jpg[/attachment]

That's why I think they were added just prior to the war....

Bob

[quote="Timmy C"]You know, I would not be at all surprised if the sets of guns facing aft when at rest are equipped with the metal doors, while the ones facing forward would have the canvas: it'd be a decent way to balance weight with the primary need for protection from water and spray coming from the front of the ship.[/quote]
This shot of the forward gun shields at Montevideo also shows open doors - you can just see a shadow line of the edge of the door:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ship_grafspee41.jpg
:wave_1:

Are you not thinking of the armored covers on the torpedo launchers? They had a roll-up canvas cover over the rear end.
:wave_1:

I'm thinking it was more likely that the canvas covered opening was pre-war, and the metal doors were added right before hostilities started.

There are very clear photos of the backs of the mounts in Koop & Schmolke that show the canvas rolled up & tied above the openings of the mounts and no doors, but they are all dated 1938 or earlier.

Drastic's photo clearly shows the metal doors during the river Platte action, so we know they were there then.

Bob

It was doors. It appears they may have been removable.

The Aftermarket 15cm guns that I have in 1/400 and 1/350 scale, do not have these doors included but I have a photo reference from Wolfgang Harnack (copyrighted), that shows doors on the forward guns too.
There are some "builds" by other modelers that do show PE doors added to these mounts on their Graf Spee models.

I suspect my fabric reference may have been based on some other photo I remembered.

Thanks to all who set the record straight.

Nino

You know, I would not be at all surprised if the sets of guns facing aft when at rest are equipped with the metal doors, while the ones facing forward would have the canvas: it'd be a decent way to balance weight with the primary need for protection from water and spray coming from the front of the ship.

[quote="drasticplastic"]This view clearly shows metal doors with a curved top. They are wide open and dogged:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Graf_Spee_Arado.jpg

:wave_1:[/quote]

Yeah that was the photo that really put me to wondering. I picked up

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/088740183X/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And that is the only clear photo of the back of the guns in the book :(

Came by this lovely colour photo on Twitter and thought it'd be a nice confirmation for anyone wanting to do the 1938 Neutrality markings: red towards the gun-end of the turret.

This view clearly shows metal doors with a curved top. They are wide open and dogged:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Graf_Spee_Arado.jpg

:wave_1:

[quote="Nino"]My memory, (slightly befuddled from time to time these days), says these mounts had a canvas or other fabric covering that enclosed the rear of the 15.0cm single mounts.[/quote]

There are two excellent pictures of what Nino describes on page 92 in "Pocket Battleships of the Deutschland Class" by Koop & Schmolke, if you have it.

If you don't have that book, I can try and scan them later and post them if you want.

Bob

take a look at this link.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-55_skc28.php

My memory, (slightly befuddled from time to time these days), says these mounts had a canvas or other fabric covering that enclosed the rear of the 15.0cm single mounts.. That's why some models of DKM ships with these 15cm guns are shown with a solid aft end. I like them open but if you have them rotated to see the rear, I highly recommend adding details.

I did not check my files to confirm my statement yet but when I do I will also look for photos of the Gun mount interior.

Nino

So I am building a Graf Spee. The Heller version with a detail kit.

Anyway I am completely befuddled with the single mount 150mm guns. In the kit, and others I have seen, the back of the turret is open. Looking at reference photos I have seen some that appear to be a solid back and other photos with an obvious door or hatch.

Does anyone know the history of these guns. Am I seeing the variations because of various refits

On a minor note, I have also seen white cylinders that look like tall LP gas cylinders you use on the grill. The ones I am talking about a stored on the lower aft deck near the overhang created by the upper aft deck. What sort of gas would have been stored

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/pictures-life-and-death-graf-spee.html

Very interesting conversion,now went full Hog and need to fix many things ( Armor belt and shipwindows)
Anyway looking good

This was before
[img]http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/download/file.php?id=117525&t=1[/img]

this is now

By International Law, she would have to show her national flag just before she opens fire. Otherwise, she would be considered to be a pirate ship.