The Ship Model Forum

By International Law, she would have to show her national flag just before she opens fire. Otherwise, she would be considered to be a pirate ship.

This might sound like a picky question, but on the Graf Spee, during combat operations in the South Atlantic, as a "Corsair", would it have any kind of flag? (I know that both the bow and stern flagpoles were stored during combat operations, no flags there of course, I mean main mast, like a "combat flag, like Germans called it, a "Reichskriegsflagge"?). Would it fly the War-flag all the time, or maybe during attacks only…
And if they did, it definitely should be smaller in size?

Marco

There was never a ship built like a "conception admiral scheer" or a sixth Panzerschiff. You can do what you want.

is it possible to do a "conception admiral scheer" from the italeri kit?
[img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/gmUAAOSwLlJc8K-5/s-l1600.jpg[/img]

I wonder why trumpeter didn't put the deutschland and the scheer on the market yet.

do you have info regarding the sixth panzerschiff? Was it even draw by the german? (I couldn't find drawing of him on the internet).

Also what refit were historically considered for the graf spee if she returned from her trip ? (the atlantic bow? a new tower like the Scheer?)
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Bundesarchiv_DVM_10_Bild-23-63-06%2C_Panzerschiff_%22Admiral_Graf_Spee%22.jpg[/img]
admiral scheer
-original:
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Admiral_Scheer_in_Gibraltar.jpg/1280px-Admiral_Scheer_in_Gibraltar.jpg[/img]
-with the new tower:
[img]http://www.kbismarck.org/photos/10Scheer-dec1940.png[/img]
http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466

:wave_1: :wave_1:
Im looking for some drawings of how the Graf Spee dummy turret looked like with those wooden barrels.

I have seen one very good upclose pic of the barrels, but not sure what shape was of the canvas that covered the half of the fwd bridge section to create the "turret" silhouette.

Does anyone have any info on this or tips?

Should it be just "canvas" over the instruments, or should I give it a distinct shape?

I don't know if this is helpful, but I corrected Trumpeter's Tribal class (both 1/350 and 1/700) forward sheer line and flare. The sheer line in this discussion is irrelevant, but the flare is. As I corrected the flare upwards and outwards the deck naturally widened accordingly.
:wave_1:

[quote="totally_random_man"]Hello Miguel,

it's nice to see your job you really got the shape of the stem! Do you have a thread in "Works in Progress"? I would like to read more about the development of your project.

I'm doing the same conversion using the same kit. As for the discussion above the foredeck was surely widened to enable the much more pronounced flare. The best drawings for Scheer are from Hans Gally, unfortately they are expensive and very cumbersome to get because he has no website you can only order on phone and he does not send the drawings outside Germany...but they are really exceellent. If you're interested in it you can check my build here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167098&p=746106#p746106

Best regards, Greg[/quote]

Greg ,your conversion is truly awesome :worship_1: ,mine is a much simpler one ,I will try to make the best approach to the Atlantic bow ,but certainly nothing like yours ,but thanks for sharing your build .it will be a fundamental reference on mine ,the problem I don't have a "Works in progress" of the Scheer because I have 4 ongoing projects and only WIP with the HMS Orion , the Bow problem was a step stone ,that is the reason I just worked the part,now got a better shape

Hello Miguel,

it's nice to see your job you really got the shape of the stem! Do you have a thread in "Works in Progress"? I would like to read more about the development of your project.

I'm doing the same conversion using the same kit. As for the discussion above the foredeck was surely widened to enable the much more pronounced flare. The best drawings for Scheer are from Hans Gally, unfortately they are expensive and very cumbersome to get because he has no website you can only order on phone and he does not send the drawings outside Germany...but they are really exceellent. If you're interested in it you can check my build here:

http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167098&p=746106#p746106

Best regards, Greg

[quote="DavidP"]I'm doing that on my Arizona kitbash. http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=165105[/quote]

I know your Zona conversion ,is nice ,but this is a different animal , I did further sanding and is getting better ,but need to be very careful.
At least I got sloped sides ,just compare with the original

I'm doing that on my Arizona kitbash. http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=165105

[quote="DavidP"]thin down the front of the bow from below the deck to above the bow foot like in the picture above that says "super thin" & an arrow in red. I do that with mine.[/quote]
Thanks for the advice ,but bit risky ,I think I'll pass, not much material left in the middle and will break and show the inside,,please post a photo of your Scheer"s bow DavidP

thin down the front of the bow from below the deck to above the bow foot like in the picture above that says "super thin" & an arrow in red. I do that with mine.

Did some job and now is looking better,still some more work to finish it ,the truth Lars is correct ,but still I have my doubts about increasing that much the beam side ,for sure they did it ,to give that proper concave look on the ship's side. The Trumpeter Spee's hull is a fine for it's application ,but for the Scheer conversion is not the best choice ,anyway ,I am not scratch building the hull and will live with the inaccuracies , but I fairly did a good job,at least is not the Spee hull at all. :whistle:

Miguel, wouldn't trust the Heller models being correct as their French warship models do not exactly match the French naval plans I have from the hacked French naval site.

There is a source for plans before and after conversion:
[url]http://sophie-caesar.de/baupl%C3%A4ne/[/url]

The two photos from forward both show that the hull sides of the foreship are curved outward not only at the extreme bow, but much further abaft. As I had written, the conversion did not only cover the stem, but also the sides of the foreship to better deflect the waves - as it was done with other larger Kriegsmarine ships, which also got the Atlantikbug. The photos show that and the drawing reflects that.

If I would have to choose, which reference is more reliable - the Kriegsmarine experts Eric Leon and John Asmussen or a Heller kit from 1974 - I would never even thinking about considering the Heller kit. Heller offers several kits of sailing ships, which never existed. E.g. the sell their Preussen kit as Cap Horn.

It is fair enough,just show me some data or pictures about the conversion in broadening the deck in that area and then I will be convinced,for me they just thinned the stem an then the slope of the side of the hull will be more curved and radical, because to increase the deck area on the sides seem to me to much trouble ,will be good to know that on the works from 1939 to 1940 which was the process.

One way to find out in certain level is to check the Heller models of the Scheer ,Lutzow and Graf Spee, they are a serious company and must did some background investigation, will ask a friend of mine who has that models and will post the measurements of the beam size abeam the fwd turret area.

The drawing in German Naval Camouflage Volume One was scaled to have exactly the same beam. The difference in width of the deck is only in the area which was modified to increase the flare.

How do you think there could be more curved sides, if the deck is not wider? That would require that the hull was narrowed at the waterline - which is extremely unlikely, especially over such an length. That would be an very extensive conversion.

/edit: the drawing I took from German Naval Camouflage Volume One shows Admiral Scheer in 1935 and after the conversion in 1940. It is the same ship. The width midships is identical.

I am totally aware that the hull form is different on Scheer,this great picture confirmed the hull has a more curved side in the front part and a super thin stem
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/KzyrMgLD/Admiral-Scheer-1942-Norwe.jpg[/img] but the area at deck level is pretty much the same ,the problem with the drawings in German Naval Camouflage Volume One is showing a beam increase of around 1 mt each side in the Anton turret region ,the data show that all 3 were similar in beam ,IMO that is to much ,so that is why I am saying the drawings are off, certainly I am not sure ,but does not sound logical to me such increase in beam.

This discussion is good ,now I have to profile better the hull ,but not going to increase the beam ,just to make changes on the hull side