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Topic review - Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
I had uploaded the full cropped image for you a little over 3 years ago on `HMAS in Scale` did you not download it Will?
Post Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 12:23 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks alot Brett,
do you have any other reference images of the Waterhen, I have not seen that stern one before and think there must be alot more? (hopefully)
Cheers,
will
Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
2 rails, each of 4 DC canister capacity.


Attachments:
Waterhen stern, 2nd qtr 41.jpg
Waterhen stern, 2nd qtr 41.jpg [ 91.38 KiB | Viewed 72 times ]
Post Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 2:45 pm
  Post subject:  HMAS Waterhen stern  Reply with quote
Hello all,
a question about the stern of the HMAS Waterhen at the time of her loss - what sort of depth charge set up did she have, if any - the stern looks rather bare to me, if anyone can advise - I am still plugging away with my 1/35 scale,
Cheers,
Will
Post Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 2:25 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Will, the only equipment within the platform was the searchlight. From `as fitted` drawings it appears there were two sizes of that particular projector, 21" and 24" Waterhen was fitted with a 24" and it was still fitted when she went down. I do not know what Mk this WW1 vintage S.L. was, and full clear images of it`s layout are very hard to find. Here are two images of the projector, both are of V Leaders, there was an operator platform towards the base of the pedestal.


Attachments:
S.L..jpg
S.L..jpg [ 317.96 KiB | Viewed 900 times ]
Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:14 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Thankyou Brett,
still gives some good detail for my Waterhen - was looking for what sort of equipment was inside the searchlight tower amongst other things,
Cheers, Will
Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:40 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
It is HMAS Voyager at Coffs Harbour, 8th Aug 1938.


Attachments:
VOYAGER at Coffs.jpg
VOYAGER at Coffs.jpg [ 306.45 KiB | Viewed 1010 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:58 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Hello all,
I am hoping this is an image of the HMAS Waterhen. Can anyone clarify and hopefully have a better quality copy of it?
Cheers Will


Attachments:
IMG_2635.PNG
IMG_2635.PNG [ 3.64 MiB | Viewed 1024 times ]
Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:20 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Hello, thanks for all your help with the paint schemes. I ended up choosing these three paints. It is nearly four hour return to the hobby shop and I don’t have a lot of time! Not completely happy but it was the closest I could find in a spray can,
Cheers will


Attachments:
6059DB98-BBBA-4E02-BE6B-4FA392BC8B34.jpeg
6059DB98-BBBA-4E02-BE6B-4FA392BC8B34.jpeg [ 174.99 KiB | Viewed 1505 times ]
581449EB-176B-4CA4-957C-D3E15374202F.jpeg
581449EB-176B-4CA4-957C-D3E15374202F.jpeg [ 133.77 KiB | Viewed 1505 times ]
Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 11:10 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Brett Morrow wrote:
Perfect James, thankyou for correcting, it did look a bit dark.
Mk I eyeball says it now looks close to the original WEM 507B.


Indeed it is. There are a couple of data points documented which indicate that the 50/50 mix should land at approximately 20% LRV. When I made linseed oil samples of 507A and C to the published formulae I mixed the results in equal parts and also got fairly close to this value. I'm not sure by what roundabout way it happened, but the Snyder & Short 507B chip measures out under spectrophotometer with a Light Reflectance Value of 19.6%, so I'd say your Mk.1 Eyeball is correctly calibrated today!
Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:49 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Perfect James, thankyou for correcting, it did look a bit dark.
Mk I eyeball says it now looks close to the original WEM 507B.
Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:40 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Brett Morrow wrote:
James may like to make comment as his description would be more precise, 507B before 1940 was a full gloss colour, A & B were the same colour but dependent on enamel content will present as a different tone/hue.


Hi Brett, I hope you're well? My only comment is that I think something has gone awry on the 50/50 digital sample. I downloaded your image to check the RBG values and whilst the 507C is bang on, the 507A is our NARN20 which is at its lightest tolerance (which is fine) but the reason there doesn't appear much difference between the 507A and 50/50 is that somehow the values have wandered downwards somewhere along the way.

I hope you don't mind but I've adjusted it a bit to show 507A at its nominal 10% RF appearance and fixed the 50/50 RGB values, so now they relate a bit better to one another. :smallsmile:

Image
Post Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 2:19 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Brilliant, thanks Brett, that makes a lot of sense now, I will go with those three colours,
cheers, Will
Post Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:33 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
A lot of research has passed since 2002 Will, there are several well written articles on Sovereign Hobbies webpage explaining the colours which you should read up on. Further research would suggest that no RAN ship was ever painted with 507B.
James may like to make comment as his description would be more precise, 507B before 1940 was a full gloss colour, A & B were the same colour but dependent on enamel content will present as a different tone/hue.
The colour I used way back in 2002 was the old WEM 507B. Dependent on how pedantic you are, if you had that colour it would be somewhere near 50/50. To be totally accurate you would use the Sovereign colour NARN 24. Australian distributor of Sovereign Colourcoats is Creative Models in Heathcote, the paints are enamel, Not acrylic.


Attachments:
WATERHEN COLOURS.jpg
WATERHEN COLOURS.jpg [ 8.98 KiB | Viewed 1689 times ]
Post Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 6:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks Brett, so is the 50/50 colour the same as 507B? like on your plastic and digital model?. That is what I have started painting it as on my model. I have changed my model so many times as I find more images, but it is enjoyable to update,
Cheers Will
Post Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 4:28 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
As we had discussed way back Will, the model was done in 2002, there was little reference available then and I had used a well known publication as reference which was incorrect.
The pattern on my model is basically correct but some colour swatches are not, there is also a waterline swatch of 50/50 aft of midships missing.
My interpretation of colours is per attachment although I feel the upper image has been enhanced, that of course is common in digital scans.
In 1941 507A/507B were one of the same, the 3rd colour is 50/50.
You have seen the port stern qtr image which shows in the first qtr of 41 the forward funnel had a 507A patch, that was painted out by April.


Attachments:
WATERHEN.jpg
WATERHEN.jpg [ 358.54 KiB | Viewed 1595 times ]
Post Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 5:05 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Thanks gents for all of the info - invaluable.
.
Can I ask another question in relation to the hull camo - pls forgive if confusing. Brett, your wonderful model and digital image which have given me alot of inspiration, appear different to the photos of her sinking. From bow to stern it appears to me to be in this order: 507A, 507B, 507C with 507A below the B mount with 507C below that (with I22 in it), followed by 507B behind the 22, 507A, 507C below the whaler, 507A below the aft funnel, 507C below the quad vickers and torps, 507C, 507A below the 3 inch HA and up to the after superstructure and gun and the stern colours on yours look good, with 507A above and 507B below on the stern.
.
What do you think? Should I have another glass of beverage?
Cheers, Will


Attachments:
WATERHEN sinking.jpg
WATERHEN sinking.jpg [ 185.47 KiB | Viewed 1603 times ]
Post Posted: Mon May 10, 2021 2:50 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Another way to tackle this question is to look at the As Fitted plans for Waterhen. These are available to view online at the National Archives of Australia. You can see which areas were originally steel deck, which areas had Corticene (“Linoleum”) laid on top of that steel, and which areas had coir matting either over the Corticene or over bare steel. (The arrangement varied a bit between different V&W’s.) This link may or may not take you straight there: Digital Item Page Gallery (naa.gov.au) If not, using their Advanced Search option input the Item ID number 32368745 at the relevant box and click search, then click through to the digital view copy. Unfortunately the resolution is not perfect but I have found that by saving the image to my PC I can zoom in and just about read enough of the writing to make out “Extent of Linoleum” (ie Corticene), “Extent of Coir Matting”, and “Extent of Coir Matting and Linoleum” etc but beware of confusion with “Extent of Catch Netting”. (Vendetta’s As Fitted’s Digital Item Page Gallery (naa.gov.au) (ID 4994340) are much clearer and may assist in interpreting Waterhen’s plans).

The As Fitted’s date back to the construction of the ships. A legitimate question would of course be did the RN or RAN make any ‘structural’ changes to the original deck covering arrangements during the interwar years prior to the ships joining the Med Fleet in WW2? I cannot see why they would have done so but someone with extensive access to Australian photo collections may be able to prove that they did. The arrangements were similar on RN V&W’s. The problem with the coir matting though was that it was impermanent. Coir matting was notoriously difficult to keep lashed down as a sea would rip the lashings. You see numerous photos of bare steel ‘iron’ decks (the central section of deck past the funnels and torpedo tubes) on V&W’s which according to the As Fitteds were laid with coir matting. Has the coir matting been swept away by a heavy sea, or disintegrated through wear and tear and not yet been replaced, or in calm, harbour or peacetime conditions has the coir matting simply been temporarily taken up and stored away to preserve it? In the Gordon Hill collection of photos of Vendetta you will find images of her with bare steel deck at exactly the same area of the iron deck shown in Brett’s photo above laid with a strip of lashed down coir matting. Likewise areas where the coir matting was supposed to have been laid over Corticene often seem in photos of V&W’s to be just bare Corticene. There is even a peacetime photo which appears to show coir matting lying half folded up on Waterhen’s B gun deck.
Attachment:
Waterhen coir folded.jpg
Waterhen coir folded.jpg [ 363.03 KiB | Viewed 1940 times ]


Different people will interpret the evidence re Waterhen in different ways. I would suggest that the “ground tackle Foc’s’le” was bare steel (painted) as per the As Fitteds. I interpret the sun ray of metal strips and other individual metal strips in that area as tread strips rather than (the continuous runs of) edging/holding down strips associated with Corticene. I think Corticene would have been quite impractical in that area. It became very slippery when wet which would have rendered things treacherous for the crew during anchor work. Nor can I see it withstanding the heavy wear and tear it would have got in that location. I am struggling to think of any RN destroyer that had Corticene in that area.

Attachment:
Waterhen Norton.jpg
Waterhen Norton.jpg [ 235 KiB | Viewed 1940 times ]

Aft of that you are going to have to decide if Norton’s painting is evidence that when sunk Waterhen had some clean new golden tan-coloured coir matting (perhaps easy to procure locally in Egypt?) laid over large areas of her decks.The questioning of Norton’s depiction of Waterhen is partly because of the way he has coloured these decks but also because Norton painted her with a list to port. It is true that photos of Waterhen after the Army passengers had been taken off and she had been abandoned by her crew show her listing to starboard. But a couple of photos said to have been taken earlier (but after the bombing) with soldiers crowded on her decks seem to show her listing to port, as in the painting, and in the painting her decks are still crowded with khaki. The account of Waterhen’s sinking in “Scrap Iron Destroyers”, Lind and Payne, published by the Naval Historical Society of Australia in 1976 may provide the answer: After the bombing “The ship slowly lost way and stopped……WATERHEN was listing heavily to port and the stores began to slide down the sloping deck into the water. The troops on the exposed deck had shown great calm during the attack. They now assisted the crew to jettison the remainder of the stores on the port side and the ship slowly came on an even keel. However, the water pouring into her innards later caused her to list to the starboard.”
Post Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Here is Vampire prewar, the deck sections in question reflect what can be seen of the deck in late 40.
The tones presented look close both periods, excluding variables there is not much difference between dark grey and brown corticene on a straight conversion.
Here also an interesting image of this section looking forward from the corner of X Gunhouse, its date is unknown.
The section behind the gunhouse where the division starts caught my eye, at first I thought it may be semtex applied with a serrated blade but it is actually coconut matting, eyelets are visible on the edging.
All up your questions are difficult to answer, you may have to bite the bullet.


Attachments:
VAMPIRE DECK, Prewar.jpg
VAMPIRE DECK, Prewar.jpg [ 307.79 KiB | Viewed 1974 times ]
looking forward strbd X gunhouse.jpg
looking forward strbd X gunhouse.jpg [ 355.41 KiB | Viewed 1974 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:46 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Royal Navy V-W class fans  Reply with quote
Will, given the current uncertainties concerning this topic, of particular between mid 40 to mid 41, it is unlikely you will get any opinions.
I will supply you with some prompts which may assist, but may also cause you extra heartburn.

As noted above, the reference to Waterhen`s painting by Norton has some anomalies. I don`t think he was there and has likely done the painting from memory and/or eye witness recollection.
He got the list wrong, has he got the deck colour wrong also ?
I would suggest you check the Gordon Hill collection, the ground tackle Foc`s`le was likely dark grey, but is it painted steel deck or corticene ? the centreline area was steel checkerplate.
The raised strips to my understanding not only aided the corticene attachment but would also provide foothold, so is their presence any guarantee that corticene is still laid ?
The decks would likely be all the same colour from the anchor Foc`s`le to just forward of X Gunhouse, from there the deck was a different colour, how far back that deck goes is unknown, it may possibly be bare painted steel. That layout was present on Vampire and also Vendetta so is likely to have been the same for Waterhen.
The prewar image of Vampire shows the X gundeck was the same colour, you must decide if it was still so in 41.
It is difficult to judge the DC rail qtrdeck area, was it corticene or painted steel decking through from the deck change forward of X gunhouse ? your call unfortunately.

Coconut matting was laid in traffic areas, what colour is wet coconut matting ?


Attachments:
VENDETTA, VAMPIRE DECK.jpg
VENDETTA, VAMPIRE DECK.jpg [ 398.2 KiB | Viewed 1975 times ]
VENDETTA COCONUT MATTING.jpg
VENDETTA COCONUT MATTING.jpg [ 116.86 KiB | Viewed 1975 times ]
Post Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:34 pm

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