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Topic review - Calling all Fletcher class DD fans
Author Message
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Understood, Steve, my friend will order soon then. Thank you for your help with figuring out these turrets.

And thanks again for complimenting my English, I am truly happy to hear I still got it!
Post Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:56 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Tu11iy wrote:
So, Steve, you can print the turrets with late faces and early shell chutes, right? By late faces I mean the way they are on single-knuckle turrets for all 5. The ones on the double knuckle late turrets seem totally different. Can this be specified through your website?


Yes, please order the turrets shown on the website. When you place your order, there is an option for you or your friend to send me a message as part of the order. In your message, please describe the exact features you want. If your friend orders, he can write in Russian. I will be able to translate.

Your English is superb.

Cheers!
Post Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:22 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Modelling is not my primary hobby so I am not gonna chase perfection. My friend is, though, but I am doing all the talking here with you because his English is not good enough. Hope this didn't sound offensive
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:03 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Tu11iy,

A comment on the 5-in/38 mounts on the Tamiya FLETCHER kit;

"I for one am going to just add PE to Tamiya's Fletcher turrets and forget it, ..."

This is one of the faults with the Tamiya kit, the mounts are under-scale. It always best to replace them for a more accurate looking kit. The poor 5-in mounts on both the Tamiya and Trumpeter kits is why there are aftermarket replacements. The 5-in/38 mounts on the DML BENSON-GLEAVES kits are pretty good as is, at least for earlier war periods, so no real need to replace those.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:47 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
So, Steve, you can print the turrets with late faces and early shell chutes, right? By late faces I mean the way they are on single-knuckle turrets for all 5. The ones on the double knuckle late turrets seem totally different. Can this be specified through your website?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:24 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Willie,

See my reply under your model build (Picture Post/...In Progress)

Hank
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:06 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Tu11iy wrote:
Did I get it right that you can't print the hood on top of the turret in 1/350, Steve?

Ты прав. Капот слишком хрупок в масштабе 1/350, чтобы выдержать процесс печати, используемый моими машинами. Машины будут раздвигать капот во время печати. Если капот переживет процесс печати, процесс очистки, скорее всего, разрушит его. В масштабе 1/350 мои принтеры могут печатать колпак как сплошной блок, но не как полый колпак.

Наименьший масштаб, на котором могут быть напечатаны колпаки, - вероятно, 1/200.

Есть другие 3D-принтеры, которые используют другой процесс, который может печатать колпак в масштабе 1/350. Эта технология чрезвычайно дорогая, около 12 000 долларов США (856000 рублей), что мне не по карману.
-----
You are correct. The hood is too fragile in 1/350 scale to survive the printing process used by my printers. The printers would pull the hood apart during printing. If the hood survived the printing process, the cleaning process would likely destroy it. In 1/350 scale, my printers can print the hood as a solid block, but not a hollow hood.

Smallest scale the hoods can be printed in is probably 1/200.

There are other 3D printers that use a different process that can print a hood in 1/350 scale. That technology is extremely expensive, about $12,000 USD (856000 RUB), unaffordable by me.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:05 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Hi all again folks:

At the risk of being too demanding, would somebody have pictures of the oil canning effect of the areas around the stern and the bottom between the bilge keels ? I have very little info about the stern, and nothing at all reg. the bottom, and I think it would be advisable to gather some more before doing anything.
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Sincerely TIA, and very best regards,

Willie.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:33 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Did I get it right that you can't print the hood on top of the turret in 1/350, Steve?
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:44 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Both my friend and I do a fair bit of scratch building or rebuilding kit details for historical accuracy, but I don't see (neither does my friend) how exactly we make a practically clean trumpeter turret in 1/350 as accurate as 3d-printed ones. I for one am going to just add PE to Tamiya's Fletcher turrets and forget it, but my friend for some reason chases the highest accuracy possible, which is way too hard to achieve via scratch building with a part this small. And we ain't too experienced. Didn't stop me from scratch building a Lexington-class bridge in 1/350, but this is harder.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:41 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
You didn't know how to answer the question and yet you answered it, thank you for sharing your vast knowledge, Rick, and sorry you had to write this much.
Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:36 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
R.E. Davis wrote:
Quote:
This doesn't answer the question about USS BLACK's gun mount configuration, but does show that Steve (Model Monkey) and Benjamin (Black Cat) could be making a multitude of variants which are only a bit different and are hard to see in 1/350 scale


I tend to agree - these are the kind of details that the individual modeler should task himself with learning how to make and not worry about buying ready made parts with every detail engraved into the part. This is called "scratch building". Try it, you'll like it!! :thumbs_up_1:

When I begin STODDARD (1/144 Scale) I will use the 5" gun mounts purchased from Model Monkey a couple years ago, refer to my 1968 photos and if I find differences, make them myself. Isn't this what the hobby is all about? (No fault with Steve if he wishes to make more variations to his 5" gun mount offerings!)

Just my humble opinion,
Hank

BTW, Rick - excellent photos!!!
Post Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:34 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
I had never really looked at the shapes of the spent shell chutes, but I'm wondering if the difference isn't more a matter of who made them, than when they were installed. Because frankly there does NOT seem to be a time difference. The early built USS BLACK has what Steve (Model Monkey) has labeled as "late model" chute (with the circular clean-out plate?) as completed through 1970's, but the late built USS CUSHING (DD-797) and USS LITTLE (DD-803) have the type of chute that Steve is calling "early model".

For those not aware of it, when the first FLETCHERS were built, there wasn't a chute on the aft end of the mount. There was a door. That was replaced by the chute during Fitting-Out at the Navy Yard they were assigned to. Below are images of USS O'BANNON (DD-450) as completed in June 1942 and a view of USS NICHOLAS (DD-449) in January 1944. Both were fitted out at BosNY, and the modification to the shield would have been done there. As you can see, another variant for the chute. Also, note the ladder locations on these two mounts!!

At every yard period, there were always a long list of OrdAlts for changes or upgrades to the various weapons and fire control onboard the ship.

Image

Image

Meanwhile, at NYNY when USS FLETCHER was Fitting-Out in July 1942, she had the chute installed and with a "squarish" clean-out plate. Then in the second close-up view, you can see that where the braces or whatever they are for (I wonder it they are water seals, because they had a big problem with seawater entering this area where a lot of the electrical and hydraulic equipment was located) would later be located line-up with seams.

Image

Image

Then in August 1943, at MINY, FLETCHER's chute is the same and we get a view of her gun mount face with "braces".

Image

Image

This doesn't answer the question about USS BLACK's gun mount configuration, but does show that Steve (Model Monkey) and Benjamin (Black Cat) could be making a multitude of variants which are only a bit different and are hard to see in 1/350 scale. There are always a multitude of minor differences between various units in each class of destroyers. When I personally model a destroyer in 1/700 or even 1/350 scale, I don't worry about little things that would be hard to see or even notice. I concentrate on he bigger things, like bulwark variations, sensors installed, the Gun Captain's Hood, etc. Both the Tamiya and Trumpeter FLETCHER kits have plenty of errors that need correcting, replaced, modified, or simply ADDED because it is missing to be accurate (both Tamiya and Trumpeter don't have flag bags or a boat winch!!!). In the larger scales, like 1/144 scale and 1/96 scale, then what can be seen and noticed grows. Each modeler has to decide what is GOOD ENOUGH.

It appears from the images I have of USS BLACK and that show the mounts, that the three images below show what her basic configuration of her mounts at the end of WWII into early 1950's were. Call them what you want, but there really was no "early and late", except for the addition of braces on the front face, handrails along the side of the mounts, and a hood for the Gun Captain.

Image

Image

Image

By the way, this image of USS CHARLES K. BRONSON (DD-668), shows that some of USS BLACK's sisters had hefty vertical reinforcements added to the 51 mount late WWII, because of damage from heavy seas. Something that was more common on the SUMNER and GEARING classes. Also, the "metal Charleston Navy Yard" style sliding metal covers for the gun port was being added on many units at the end of WWII. But, not on USS BLACK.

Also, note the 5-in/38 gun being worked on alongside BRONSON, provides details without the shield installed. You can see the equipment that the access plates on the right side are there for.

Image
Post Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:05 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Tu11iy wrote:
Yeah, Steve, we see Rick is a Fletcher-class guru and we're super lucky to be talking with him. And we have been looking at the MM turrets, but there is an issue. The turret faces are late type as they should be, but, looking at the photos, Black has early type shell drop "tail" on the rear of the turrets, which neither you not BCM make. Unlike you, thought, BCM has other issues with the turrets which leaves you, Steve, and the question: if it is confirmed that the turrets' faces are late type but their rear ends are early type, could you print them like this and sell them to us?

Да, я могу сделать для вас башню с лицом или хвостом, которую вы видите на рисунках ниже. Когда вы с Рик определите, какая конфигурация лучше, просто дайте мне знать.

Какой масштаб вам нужен? Капот не для печати в небольших масштабах, как 1/350 масштаба.
-----
Yes, I can make a turret for you with either face or tail you see in the renderings below. When you and Rick determine which configuration is best, just let me know.

Which scale do you need? The blast hood is not printable in small scales like 1/350 scale.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:00 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Tulliy,

Sorry to be late in this discussion, I hurriedly wrote my last reply before I went to a family gathering three hours driving away.

I get confused when terms like "early-war style" and "late-war style" without images or pointers as to what you are referring to. So I'm not sure of what differences you are referring to.

Also, realize that there were multiple variations among the 175 FLETCHER class units according to builders, timeframe reflecting upgrades, and changes made to ease things like maintenance or to reduce damage from nature's actions. It is almost impossible for a kit manufacturer or after-market maker to cover all these variations. You may or may not have noticed yet, that there were TWO types of 5-in/38 mounts. Ones with the Gun Capt. hatch on the right and one with the hatch on the left. USS BLACK fortunately has ALL her mounts of the "righty" type. This happened because the USN wanted to make as few variants of the basic 5-in gun as possible. There had to be "left" and "right" guns for twin mounts, and rather than make a third mount strictly for single mounts, they installed "left" or "right" or a mix of the two on destroyers. No manufacture makes both types. To be truthful, few people even notice.

The FLETCHER class was built by several building yards, ten of these yards built the Square-Bridge variant over a period of roughly three years and underwent multiple changes in configuration along the way. USS BLACK (DD-666) was the 66th unit out of 175 units in "commissioned" order. So she was fairly early in the production of the class. But, the builders didn't make or even procure themselves the armament, it was Government Furnished Equipment (GFE). The USN contracted separately for the 5-in/38 mounts and furnished them to the builders.

The gun mounts from the first built units in the class went through changes as well. Initially the mount "shield" or cover if you will as well as the bulwarks around the lighter AA weapons, was made out of a heavier gage steel. But, in order to save weight, these materials were changed to a lighter and thinner steel, with all welding, except for bolt fastener connections. Unless the destroyer was lost, the original shields were replaced with the lighter shields. The original shields, particularly the double-knuckle ones, were made with a degree of rivets. By the time that the Square-Bridge units started construction, most of these weight saving measures had already taken into practice. Some changes were made during construction for various reasons and NOT ALL of these changes necessarily are retrofitted to previous built units.

I don't know how to answer your questions. Below are views of USS BLACK's forward 51 mount in June 1943 and then in 1971 as she was about to be scrapped. The aft shell eject chute appears to still be the same. Followed by two "late construction" FLETCHERS. The only difference I can see, is that USS BLACK's spent shell chute appears to have a "rounded" shape and the two late war built units have a "straight" shape. Likely this was done to ease manufacturing. See the June 1953 image of USS BLACK further down for a bette view of her chute.

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Image

Below here are the fronts of the first Square-Bridge unit commissioned (USS BROWNSON (DD-518)) and one of the last Square-Bridge units completed (USS SHIELDS (DD-596)) and of USS BLACK. Other than a few minor differences, they look about the same. I'm not sure of what you are calling "(mounts) turrets' faces are late type"?

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The only thing that I think you are referring to are what appear to be "reinforcement ribs" (or sealing strips) added to the fronts of some mounts.

USS BLACK (DD-666) in May 1952
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USS BLACK (DD-666) in June 1953
Image

USS BLACK (DD-666) in about 1954
Image
Post Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:21 am
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
chute should be easy to make.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0566610.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/666.htm
Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:12 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Yeah, Steve, we see Rick is a Fletcher-class guru and we're super lucky to be talking with him. And we have been looking at the MM turrets, but there is an issue. The turret faces are late type as they should be, but, looking at the photos, Black has early type shell drop "tail" on the rear of the turrets, which neither you not BCM make. Unlike you, thought, BCM has other issues with the turrets which leaves you, Steve, and the question: if it is confirmed that the turrets' faces are late type but their rear ends are early type, could you print them like this and sell them to us?
Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:37 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
Рик Дэвис - эксперт класса Флетчера. Вы нашли лучшего человека для переписки.

Хорошая новость, Model Monkey отправляет модели в Россию.

Мы производим собственные модели на собственных 3D-принтерах. Вам не нужно покупать у Shapeways.

Наши турели класса Fletcher в масштабе 1/350 имеют позднюю конфигурацию.

Надеюсь это поможет.
Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:31 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
By the way, am I right that all the turrets on the Black have late-type turret faces with early shell drop "tails" on the rear? If not, what configuration do they have exactly? My friend won't leave me be with this question.
Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:26 pm
  Post subject:  Re: Calling all Fletcher class DD fans  Reply with quote
That is kind of a subjective question. First off, I have not seen ALL of the possible options available for aftermarket 5-in/38 Gun Mounts (Technically not Turrets) in 1/350 scale. The resin market is hard for me to keep track of and the 3-D printed market keeps expanding with new vendors. I have picked up several resin pieces of these mounts over the years of which some companies are still in business and others aren't. I have or seen two of the 3-D printed mounts, made by Model Monkey and Black Cat. Both are good, the Black Cat units have gone a step further in details because of their higher end printer, but are also more expensive. I believe that you can get both in Europe (via Shapeways for Model Monkey). For late war and post-WWII, the two main deck mounts should be the "double-knuckle" types with a gun captain hood on the mount. Model Monkey currently doesn't have the hoods on any of their mounts. Black Cat does, but they sell both the double-knuckle and single knuckle 5-in mounts in packages of two of which only one has the hood on it. So you would need to figure out how many mounts you need to order. Besides the main deck mounts, on most, but not all, FLETCHER's the 54 mount also has a hood on that single-knuckle mount. USS BLACK did have a hood on the 54 mount. Some resin vendors, make mounts with the hood on them, but as I said, you need to search for what is currently available. If you are good at scratch-building, these hoods are small and not too hard to make and add as needed.

One consideration is the foundations for the mounts. The Tamiya and Trumpeter kits have different ways the mounts are installed on the kit. Some after market makers have the foundation ring on the mount and some don't. You will want to be satisfied that the mounts you get will sit the proper height above the deck. Because of the sheer of the deck forward, this can be tricky to get to look right.


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:54 am

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