The Ship Model Forum

by **Lotus14** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:45 pm

Litho-plate is a thin aluminum material with a photosensitive coating used to do lithographic offset printing.
If you want litho-plate for the aluminum, then go to a print shop and ask them if they will give you their old plates. Tell them what you want it for and you might get it. You should try the larger or more quality printers, as the little quicky places use a paper plate; the aluminum plates are for longer run higher quality jobs.
Usually they will destroy the image on the plate, but it can be done without hurting the plate. There may be a scrap value to the plate, but I'm sure it wouldn't amount to much, if they recycle. Litho-plate is thicker than an aluminum beer can, and a harder material, although you could anneal it.

by **Yevgeniy** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:47 am

The reason why I started to look for litho plate/steel sheets is that balsa is almost impossible to get in my place while litho/steel is no problem. I worked in a company selling offset printing machines and litho plates so I have many sourses where to get it free of charge in various thicknesses.

Also I found how to plate ship effectively when assembling paper models. My idea was to replace paper with sheets of metal (and plywood for ribs).

As to soldering aluminium I will make a couple of experiments and will report on them here (plan after new year). I found some simple chemistry for them - none of the exotic "bismuises".

If I do not succeed I will try some steel sheets. Recently I bought fantastic steel cutting scissors - I want to give them a try (they cut plastic like butter).

The only problem remains - how to attach steel/litho plates directly to plywood ribs. Making ribs out of thin metal and then soldering hull plating to the ribs seems too cumbersome. Ribs shall be at lease 3 mm thick as plywood.

May be the seams will be strong enough so that ribs will be used only to make a form in metal and them can be descarded?

So I will have to think about it.

Yevgeniy

by **HMAS** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:59 am

[Apparently it can by using a solder called Alusol. a low temprature cored soft solder works a treat.

Dave Wooley[/quote]
Have seen it at a show, chap punched a hole in a coke can & then "soldered"* it OK so far but it didn't hold water

well not after I flexed the ali under it. * all he did was flow some low temp metal, bismuth? onto it. Look in the gag shops for the disappearing spoon trick. When the spoon is placed in a hot cup of coffee the spoon melts
As I remember it was a very expensive option.

The reason ali cannot be soldered normally is that ali oxidizes extremely quickly in air. To really solder ali, the trick is to pop oil on the surface & then scrub the ali to clean the surface under the layer of oil, then use a really red hot iron to plunge through the oil onto the items to be soldered, not for the faint hearted nor indoors the smell of burning oil is not good!

Also Super glue in machining is only used as a temporary measure on brass articles as it comes apart after a while.
Whilst I realise there are technical advances going on I really think some most of these items are useless & a waste of money!

IF I really had to have a metal hull I would go for brass & solder, or thin sheets of steel, known as shim steel, available down to at least .01mm

by **Yevgeniy** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:28 pm

Yeah, Dave, thank you for inspiring me!

HMAS, after your mail I went googling and found that:
1) soldering aluminium is actually a problem if done as normal soldering
2) but with right stuff and some change of approach it is simple - I have found three approaches how to solder aluminium at home without heavy equipment

The only problem (!) I found is how to stick aluminium sheets to plywood ribs (before soldering also). Will have to think about it.

Yevgeniy

by **Dave Wooley** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:25 pm

HMAS wrote:
Yevgeniy wrote: Cut in large pieces (like paper model hull plating - those who made card models will understand me). Litho plate can be thicker to provide for solid hull. It can be soldered at the seams I guess.
What do you think, is this idea feasible and practicable?
Yevgeniy
Yevgeniy
Lithoplate/aliminum cannot be soldered.
Your best bet is to pin it place & then silicon the sheets to a wooden hull!
Tony

Apparently it can by using a solder called Alusol. a low temprature cored soft solder works a treat.

Dave Wooley

by **HMAS** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:37 am

Yevgeniy wrote: Cut in large pieces (like paper model hull plating - those who made card models will understand me). Litho plate can be thicker to provide for solid hull. It can be soldered at the seams I guess.
What do you think, is this idea feasible and practicable?
Yevgeniy

Yevgeniy
Lithoplate/aliminum cannot be soldered.
Your best bet is to pin it place & then silicon the sheets to a wooden hull!
Tony

by **Yevgeniy** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:32 am

ARH, thank you for answering, I have waited for your opinion to make some conclusion.

Now I decided that I will
1) finish my paper model (s) to get the idea how I can plate the hull by large pieces of paper (litho later)
2) buy two types of litho 0,10 and 0,20 and test it on some simple model - I already got
drawings of Small Gun Boat (WWII Soviet type of vessel)
3) experiment with plating hull by litho only

It will take some time as Grosser Kurfurst is on the dockyard. I plan that finishing my paper U-boat and Steregyischiy in 1:100 (Sokol class Russian Tsar (1905) type destroyer) in spring next year. By that time I hope to get a scroll saw and dremel and will be ready for Metal Hull Model!!!

Yevgeniy

by **ARH** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:28 pm

If you are going to do something like that you would need at least 3 layers of litho, other wise it will leek like a sieve, litho is soft, aluminium is hard , not as easy to bend round thoughs awkward spots.
But then what do I know about building models,

by **Yevgeniy** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:11 pm

Yes, exactly, now you understand what I mean - use litho as construction material for hull surface (not as 'cosmetics' on balsa) and not apply balsa at all.

Interesting what ARH thinks of it (my post above in this thread)? If you confirm this possibility I will order some litho from local printing houses in my city and will give them a try sometime. I will also need to decide which thickness as 0,10 mm will be too gentle for heavy waters of my local pond

(quite large pond - lake actually 500 meters long - each time I pass by I visualize my first RC ship on it).

Yevgeniy

by **Timmy C** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:16 pm

Oh I see what you mean! I thought you were going to cover the ribs themselves with the litho - I now see that you mean to use the litho as-is for doing the hull surface itself.

by **Yevgeniy** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:33 am

Timmy,

You are absolutely right!

But my idea was to forget about balsa-cover-for -the-ribs at all and use only litho instead. Cut in large pieces (like paper model hull plating - those who made card models will understand me). Litho plate can be thicker to provide for solid hull. It can be soldered at the seams I guess.

What do you think about it? I started thinking in this way after being in the process of card modelling (for my 6 year old Junior) - we are making an U-boat from card and paper - I want to get him involved at some point. I thought - why not to replace card ribs by plywood and paper covering - by some sheet of metal.

Unfortunaly I have too little time for those experiments. Also I want to finally finish my ICM Grosser Kurfurst - I abstain from guessing when it will happen. But I will definitely go in scratchbuilding at some point and I have this idea about making hull from sheet of papers, like litho.

What do you think, is this idea feasible and practicable?

Yevgeniy

by **Timmy C** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:38 am

From what I recall of ARH's builds, there is no need to cover the ribs with litho, as the litho serves mainly as a cosmetic function in the form of hull plating, which will not be seen if it were to cover the ribs.

by **Yevgeniy** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:12 am

Dear all!

I have a question on plating (Before I only made injection plastic kits and started two paper projects (from where I learned about ribs and plans) but latest very lively discussion started by Rene on Main Forum "How difficult is it to scratchbuilt?" inspired by interest in this area).

Is it common practice that ribs are first covered by balsa/plywood/plastic and only after they are covered by litho plate? Can they be covered by litho at once without intermediary-balsa-layer? May be more thick litho (not 0,10 mm)? I guess in this case there shall be much more ribs (?) - the advantage is smother hull lines (if ribs are OK) and more realistic build - like on real yard!

Yevgeniy

by **Lotus14** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:13 pm

As I said it was readily available for free, and it is a hard temper, so it can be bent and not dent up. Flashing is softer material; but there is no reason not to use flashing material. Before the common use of aluminum foil in households, modelers used old gum and cigarette foil to cover models; you use what ya got. Some time ago, in the world of FAI free flight competition models, the Russians used a very thin hard temper aluminum to cover the wings as it gave a very true low drag wing. What ever it was it was unavailable in the west, I always thought it was like litho plate, but in very big sheets to get the seamless finish. Stuff like flashing was too soft to form in continuous airfoil shapes.

by **babyduck5** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:27 pm

If all you need is thin-gauge aluminum,why not use aluminum flashing they have Home Depot or Lowes? It comes in rolls of about 6"-8"x 10' and fairly inexpensive from what I remember.

Jim B.

by **Lotus14** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:57 pm

What's so great about litho plate?

Nothing really, but is an easy source of thin aluminum.

My wife was in the printing business in San Francisco, and I was able to fish all the litho plate I needed out of the garbage, so I used it. It is also has a reasonably hard temper, so it does not dent or scratch easily. It is also availble as a thin stock, which was not so easy to buy from a metal dealer.

If you have a cheap source of .010" aluminum, then you don't need it.

by **kennylibben** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:34 pm

what so great about litho? i mean, why it over others?

i've found some cheap tin and aluminum sheeting that i think might do the job....

by **scousegit** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:25 pm

dont want to pay too much!

Yes, well, I can imagine that. You will have to pay at least the scap value plus my bit on top. The shipping cost could well be prohibitive as you rightly fear

The Largest sheet is 28 3/4" x 23 1/4" approx, the smaller, thinner, ones are about A4 size.

Scouse

by **kennylibben** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:55 am

scouse can you get us some prices? my biggest fear is the shipping rates... i'll try to get some estimates on them... dont want to pay too much!

by **scousegit** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:45 am

Place your orders please

Available in various sheet sizes and two thicknesses IE thin and thick. the later is about 1/32.

I don't work there anymore - mores the pity, but i can still get quite large amounts as we are still on talking terms.

Scouse.

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