The Ship Model Forum

by **mike mccabe** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:16 pm

HI Tom
You're right about pastels and I forgot to mention it, if you spray a matt coat over it a lot of the pastel is lost, I don't quite know why.

Good luck

Mike

by **Tom Naylor** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:16 am

Thanks for all of the tips, Mates!

I really appreciate the replies and variety of techniques presented. I just layed down coat of Future on my AFV Club Type XXI (1/350 scale) for an experiment and it came out fairly smooth and quite acceptable, but a little on the grainy side and semi-matte. This is about as good as I've gotted it on armor and aircraft - not spectular, but not too bad and a great surface for decals or washes.

I'll follow up with an oil wash and pick out the details and eventually seal with Tamiya Flat base/Future mix; possibly followed with a little pastel rust and dust coat. I've had mixed results in the past using a flat coat over the pastels as it seemed to make them vanish. Since the model won't be handled, should be ok.

I liked the idea of a test bed kit using future on one half and skipping it on the other to experiment with the other techniques.

Going to spend more time playing with the air pressure and add more windex (or try Isopropyl instead). I used a Badger 150 @ 15 PSI, 2-3 inches from the surface, and with 5 drops or so added to the 1/2 ounce mix.

Looking forward to trying the other techniques and developing a better spraying technique for the future.

Thanks again.

Tom

by **Devin** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:04 am

I can sometimes skip step 3. Gloss, if I am not using decals. I use them more and more for hull numbers and non-skid decks, though, so I usually do all 5 steps, sometimes even more layers than that. I've never had a problem with paint buildup or loss of detail. I airbrush, and if you put the paint on thin - like you should - there's no problem at all.

Now if you're brush painting or using a rattle can to spray, then you're in trouble.

-Devin

by **mike mccabe** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:08 am

I always use enamels so as David says you need a sealing coat if you want to yse oils to wash, which is why I use Kleer. It still pays not to go overboard with the wash even when using this method and it can still eat through a thin layer of Kleer.

Pastel I find needs a matt surface to adhere to, but again experimentation is the only way to find this out.

Mike

by **David Griffith** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:49 am

If you use acrylic paints for the basic finish, then a wash of artist's oils will not attack it, so there is no need to apply a sealing coat of Kleer/Future.

An oil wash on top of enamels would be a whole different kettle of fish, and a sealing coat of something acrylic would be much safer.

I find that the slight "tooth" of matt paint gets the oil wash to adhere better, but other people may have different experience. Also pastel chalks and powders seem to adhere very differently depending on the surface you apply them to when you put them on dry. If I remember correctly they tended to stick like glue to a gloss surface.

Regards,

David Griffith

by **Rob** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:49 am

Mike is right. The best way you can find out what works is to experiment. The time you take to do this is worth it as it will teach you how to control paint and be able to predict what it will do. Mike gets very good results going through stages 1-5.

If you want to take the risk, why not pick a ship you care little for, paint it one method on one side, one on the other.

Essentially what I do is:

build entire model (minus small boats)

spray a base colour

hand paint by brush the rest

weather

I use enamels, generally from WEM for the basic colours.

Weathering, I then do with a sloppy wash of oils, followed by brushing off the excesss, repeating until I am happy with the tone and texture.

While there is still some moisture in the oil wash, I dry-brush with a pale enamel to highlight high spots and fade flat areas.

Obviously, this can take several hours of tweaking the paint. I usually allow myself an entire evening for a weathering job as I am painting wet-on-wet.

For rust, I dry-brush with artists acrylics directly onto the wet-damp surface described above.

Two things I cannot emphasise enough are to have a good source of lighting and good quality paint brushes.

Always happy to try to help. Tom - drop me a line if you want.

Cheers,

Rob

by **mike mccabe** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:29 pm

Tom Naylor wrote:Another thought...

Fewer finishing steps to acheive a striking model may also equate to a faster build (as Mike suggested) and possibly lower the odds of botching it when approaching the finish line! God knows how many time I've done that...(':censored_2:')

The only answer to that one has to be yes! As with anything it is a case of what works for you. I'm sure Rob will let you in on his secrets but I have found the method I described works for me. The only way to find your preferred method is to have a go and see how it turns out.

Mike

by **mark pfaff** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:54 pm

Hi all
For all you modelers that don't live in USA, there is an article at http://SwannysModels.com that explains where you can get this stuff outside of the USA, It's in the tips and tool section.
Mark

by **Tom Naylor** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:17 pm

Another thought...

Fewer finishing steps to acheive a striking model may also equate to a faster build (as Mike suggested) and possibly lower the odds of botching it when approaching the finish line! God knows how many time I've done that...(':censored_2:')

by **Tom Naylor** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:09 pm

Gentlemen - Thanks for the replies.

Rob, I'm curious - It sounds like your able to weather without the clear coat. Are you using thinned oils over acrylics?

How about rust, washed out surfaces, etc? Are you able to lay down weathering over a flat coat and still keep it under control without smudges (which was my main concern)?

Thanks again.

Tom Naylor

by **mike mccabe** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:59 pm

Rob wrote:I go through stages 2 and 4. As I don't use pastels, I only use varnish when I have to apply decals which is not all that often.

Cheers,

Rob

One reason it takes me about five times longer than you to build a model probably...

Mike

by **Rob** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:43 am

I go through stages 2 and 4. As I don't use pastels, I only use varnish when I have to apply decals which is not all that often.

Cheers,

Rob

by **johndon** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:08 pm

Mike and Filipe

Thanks to you both.

John

by **Filipe Ramires** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:45 pm

I do recall getting Future in Tesco's some 5 years ago when I was living in Colchester. The guys here in Portugal even asked me to get a few extra to them when coming back. Check that!

by **mike mccabe** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:38 pm

johndon wrote:Mike,

Where do you buy the Kleer from as I've been looking for an equivalent of future over here in the UK?

Thanks

John

John
To be honest I can't quite remember, I think it was one of those bargain diy cum garden centre type places, Wilkinsons or such like. It did take me a while to find it but just keep looking round those sort of shops and you'll come across it. Kleer is the same stuff as Future just different brand name.

Mike

by **johndon** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:39 am

Mike,

Where do you buy the Kleer from as I've been looking for an equivalent of future over here in the UK?

Thanks

John

by **mike mccabe** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:15 am

Tom
That is pretty much what I do! Do you use an airbrush? If so the layers of paint or sealant are so thin that as long as you aren't heavy handed you will still retain the detail. I use a layer of Future (Kleer in the UK) as it allows the wash to get into the detail much better and also if there are any decals they can be applied at that stage. I then seal this with a flat coat and do the weathering, in fact I seal this with another flat coat as I use pastels.

The process of washes and dry brushing brings out the details so you shouldn't lose anything, hand brushing everything is a different thing altogether in this scale I think, so it depends on what method you are using.

Mike

by **Tom Naylor** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:00 pm

Shipmates,

I'm trying to determine if the following finishing process commonly used for modeling in larger scales (armor and aircraft, for example) is completely practical for modeling ships:

1. Prime
2. Paint (flat enamels, acrylics)
3. Gloss (Future, etc.)
4. Weather (oil wash; waterbased; pastel)
5. Sealer coat (Flat; Semi-Gloss)

The reason I raise the question is that it seems that on a 1/350 or 1/700 scale subject, too many layers of finish are being applied, thus obscuring some of the fine detail.

--->I'm wondering if most small scale ship modelers are using the gloss coat/barrier or have you developed weathering techniques that allow you to skip it and preserve more of the fine details?

I'm looking for ways to retain as much of the original detail as possible while still allowing some room for subtle weathering techniques.

Regards,

Tom Naylor

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