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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:05 pm 
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Today I printed circular rail for the foremast SG radar platform, which looks very nice. At the same time I also printed rail to surround the inclined ladders as they emerge on the top bridge deck. However I fat fingered the dimensions so am printing some new ones. The Aft mainmast radar also has a circular rail, however I will need to re design this as it will need to be split as the large search radar is too large to slip the rail over in one piece. For the 1:120 scale the printed rail is very nice, perhaps better than PE with a more three dimensional appearance and not overscale.

Cheers: Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:56 pm 
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Attachment:
Fwd mast rail ring.jpg
Fwd mast rail ring.jpg [ 335.88 KiB | Viewed 201 times ]


Fwd Mast platform rail ring. The one for the aft mast printing now has a split for installation.


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:36 pm 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Tom,

That looks excellent - wish my handmade railing for the Mk. 56 Director platform had come out as nice. You're moving right along with the 3D design - kudos!

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:40 pm 
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Hank:

Send me the dimensions and I'll send you a file.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:20 am 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Tom,

How tough are those hand rails? Are there non-brittle resins?

The reason I ask is that when I start on my 1:96 Oklahoma City I will have miles of hand rails to build. The dimensions of the tubes were 1.25" diameter to 0.75" diameter. That translates to 0.013" (0.33 mm) to 0.008" (0.2 mm) diameter at 1:96.

I have brass wire for the rails, but I have been trying to figure out how to drill an 0.008" hole in a 0.013" wire. Tricky! However, if I could 3D print the rails life would be a lot simpler! But I don't want to mess with thin parts like that if they are brittle and will break at the slightest touch.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:49 am 
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Phil:

These are quite flexible and reasonably tough. It's their flexibility that makes such an airy structure survivable. The flexibility also makes the installation a bit more tricky. The 1:192 inclined ladders that I retrofitted for Alaska and Missouri seem tough enough. In some cases in the smaller scales a slight overscale of hand rails etc seems visually acceptable. I'll be able to comment more as I gain experience.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:15 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Fliger747 wrote:
Hank:
Send me the dimensions and I'll send you a file.
Tom


Thanks, Tom - I'll get a 2D drawing to you today on that particular circular handrail. I may try to get back to DSM today and start with the vent covers - complete redo in metric this time. But, I will save your last .stl and .phz file you sent me as back up.

My guess is that the handrails were 1" dia. (actual), so in 1/144 scale these would be 0.008" (rounded) or 0.176 (0.18)mm. You comment regarding oversizing is completely acceptable and logical. Right now, my handrails are 0.76mm dia. which is a bit large. The stanchions are wider and need thinning down, etc.

I will locate the postions of stanchions - there is also a 5mm gap in the back for the vertical ladder.

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:42 pm 
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Hank:

File on it's way to you. Always possible that some adjustment will be necessary!

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:44 pm 
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Attachment:
chain lifelines.jpg
chain lifelines.jpg [ 307.99 KiB | Viewed 153 times ]


Some more life line experiments. The area on the boat deck where the paravanes were located appeared to have removable stanchions connected with chain.


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:27 pm 
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Phil:

I have had decent luck making rails down to .3 mm which is a little over 1" at your scale. .5 mm is much more substantial. Pascal with his experience would be much more able to comment with authority.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:40 pm 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Hank,

On US Navy ships WWII to post Vietnam the normal hand rails were composed of:

1. The top rail was 1 inch diameter pipe.

2. The lower two rails were 3/4 inch pipe.

3. The vertical stanchions/posts were 1 1/4 inch pipe.

Note: These are INSIDE dimensions (ID). Outside dimensions (OD) are:

1" ID = 1.315" OD
3/4" ID = 1.050" OD
1 1/4" ID = 1.660" OD

Normal spacing between the horizontal pipes was 12" between the top two pipes and 15" between the lower pipe and the deck.

Stanchions with caps were normally 38" high from the deck. The top pipe rail centerline was 2" below the top/cap, was notched to fit to the vertical pipe, and welded to the side of the vertical pipe.

Stanchions that did not rise above the top rail were 42" tall from the deck to the centerline of the top pipe rail. They were notched and the top rail was welded into the notch.

Stanchions were normally welded to the deck and to the 3" high coaming around the superstructure decks. However, some railing stanchions were attached to the sides of the bulkheads instead of being welded to the deck. In these cases the stanchions were 1" longer and were welded to the outside of the coaming and superstructure side, with the top rail centerline 42" above the deck.

NOTE: Some rails were not "normal" and might have only two horizontal rails (or 4), or they were made of larger diameter pipes. But most of the rails around the superstructure had the dimensions given above.

Hope this is useful.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:08 am 
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Good info as always!


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:33 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Phil,

I certainly appreciate it (your handrail info above)!! Was not aware of the actual details. This will help with 3D design of handrail parts for sure! I'm printing out your info so I can pin it to my bulletin board.

Info like this is sometimes hard to find, esp. if you don't have available design criteria from shipyards.

Thanks,

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:15 pm 
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Repairs aside, I have decided to diverge a little from Randall's appearance as she was in the early 50's during the filming of Away All Boats and attempt to portray her during the war. That changes the distribution of the 20 mm armament a little, especially on the top deck above the bridge. Looking at a number of drawings and photos there are a few more details I can add in that area, starboard of the rangefinder tower is both a compass repeater and an engine order telegraph. On the bulwark at the front there is an interesting complex bracket for a 20 mm ready box, port and starboard, and a couple of brackets for small whip antennas. Two more ready boxes litter the deck there as well. On the aft of the main superstructure on the O2 level I discovered the location of the control boxes for the winches for the booms fwd of the #4 hatch. Also there was attached to the rail between a rack for swabs to dry and air in the sun. Whether this is too small an item to portray, I do not as yet know.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:45 pm 
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The rail for the aft section of the O2 level printed fine, in scale, but at .24 mm dia pipes are very fragile and super flexible. I am printing one with larger pipes (.4 mm) which I think will still look good and will compare the two. The skinny one is currently sitting in place but not glued down. Installing skinny (in scale) rails might be problematic in some ways. For Phil's project at 1:96 it is a more practical implementation.

I sent Hank a rail file for the aft director for his Stoddard. That one, going all the way, wrapping around the platform included a band at the bottom to attach to the platform edge and make for a new edge with the appearance of stanchions welded to the perimeter.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:59 pm 
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Location: Brittany, France
Yes, minimum is 0,3mm .. Not due to the printer but the mechanical resistance of the resin..

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Project in progress:

• USS Pamanset (AO-85) : viewtopic.php?f=13&t=305869
• USS Hornet (CV-8) : viewtopic.php?f=59&t=306241


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:09 pm 
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Pascal:

Thank you for adding your experience. I finally went with the rail that I printed at .4 mm dia for the pipes. It looks fine and is considerably more solid. Now attached to the ship and I like the ability to have a curved bend at a corner without a stanchion placed there.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:19 pm 
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So, based on Phil's specs. of pipe sizes, in metric terms @ 1/144 scale, the following is derived:
Top Rail - 0.23mm - maybe bumped up to 0.4mm as you mentioned without looking oversized
Lower Rails - 0.1852mm - perhaps bumped up to 0.3mm, etc. for strength
Stanchions - 0.2928mm - bump them up to 0.45mm as they should be the widest of the set

That's just a calculation w/o actually drawing anything in CAD to visualize how they would look.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:27 pm 
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Hank:

The file I sent you has .4mm pipe and stanchions. See how it looks, my experience suggests that the rails tend to print at smaller than the nominal dimension.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:36 am 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Here is a blueprint for handrails on a Cleveland class cruiser in WWII. It is a basic BuShips drawing and was used for most US Navy ships.

The 35mm microfilm image of the original 94x36 inch drawing was scanned at 1000 DPI and is 193 megabytes - a bit too large for posting on the Forum! But after messing with it in Photoshop I managed to get a low resolution file less than 400 kilobytes that the Forum accepted.

The image is a bit fuzzy but legible. If there is something you can't read I can cut out a part of the original scan and make an image of it.

Hope this helps.

Phil

Note: If you know the distances between the horizontal rails for the hand rails in a picture you have a vertical measure for "photoguestimation" of the dimensions of nearby objects. I have done this many times and it produces pretty reliable dimensions.

The only caveat is that although the distance between the bottom rail and the deck is normally 18 inches there is usually a 3 inch high x 3/8 inch thick coaming at the edge of superstructure weather decks. So in photos the distance between the bottom rail and the top of the coaming is only 15 inches.


Attachments:
CL55 R2F362 rail stanchions details 1.jpg
CL55 R2F362 rail stanchions details 1.jpg [ 366.92 KiB | Viewed 68 times ]

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