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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:33 pm 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Tom,

Do you have engineering drawings of the 5"/38 gun? Or are you working from photos in the manuals for the gun?

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:27 am 
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I have basic dimensions and detailed photos in the manuals of how to take small parts apart. From the three elevation drawings I can scale the parts as best I can for size and location and then construct each part as best I can. What I can describe as only a mount general arrangement drawing for a mark attributed to APA's. From the movie I can perhaps ascertain if this mount type was used on Randall. In general from the general arrangement I can find and locate the parts. From the other various drawings I can scale and try to detail each component.

Not perfect! However an interesting further education in the operation and utility of this weapon.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:41 pm
Posts: 1929
Location: Mocksville, NC
Tom,

Just saw your last photos of RANDALL - this is really turning out excellent!!! The stowed amphib cargo & 55 gal drums certainly add a different flair and color to the model!!!

Do you happen to know what Mark/Mod of the open 5"/38 you are dealing with? I'll scour what I have and see if anything would be usable, etc.

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:10 am 
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http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0448.htm
http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/index.htm


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:47 am 
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HNSA is always a good reference source. Their Mount and turret catalogue has been a good reference for many small projects. That is of course the general arrangement mount drawing I am currently referring to. I also have some more technical drawings of a slightly different mount which shows the components in considerable more details, and to scale. Between that and MX documents with many photos it's enough to make a fair replica of the mount actually used on the APA's. The 5" mount is also seen being used aboard Randall in "Away All Boats" which allows some degree of confirmation.

The ship is being portrayed as at the beachhead for a supporting landing, for instance "O' kana wah" (Irish Coast ?) where fresh support equipment has been loaded in Glasgow, or was it Guam?.

Interesting that there were so many variants of this mount. Mostly the variations are location of accessory components and some included or not included. Only a few variations are without the fuze setting equipment.

Thank you to Song Hank, Phil and others for your kind comments!

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:41 am 
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Attachment:
M4 whiteout.jpg
M4 whiteout.jpg [ 200.9 KiB | Viewed 235 times ]


M4 driving in a whiteout... If I knew what I was doing, all this stuff would be easier. Must be 25 years since I put a decal on something.

Cheers: Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:47 pm 
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Location: Brittany, France
Nice, you haven't lost your touch! :thumbs_up_1:

Are you going to apply a matte varnish after the decals?

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•USS Pamanset: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=305869
•USS Hornet: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=306241
•Bismarck: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=314096


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:30 pm 
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Pascal:

Yes, as soon as I find a good one. I used to use Testers Dull Coat after using the Gloss coat, of which I still have a bit of. Problem is shipping lacquers as hazmat is prohibitive. Looking through artists supplies, the pastel fixative I have for artwork is too glossy still.

Attachment:
WP&Y.jpg
WP&Y.jpg [ 257.14 KiB | Viewed 218 times ]


A successful use of dull coat on a Narrow Gauge Boxcar I built over 30 years ago.

Tom


Last edited by Fliger747 on Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:33 pm 
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As I could no longer find testors dullcote in NL I have switched to Vallejo acrylic matt. It is not as nice as dullcote but it does the job.


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:53 pm 
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Posts: 259
Location: Colorado
As I recall the large number of different mods of the 5" Mark 30 mount are because of interlocks for the positions these guns could be mounted on DDs and other ships. I understand this to be the reason there are so many different mods that look visibly identical in photos (and indeed have almost carbon copy Gun Mount and Turret Catalog entries).

I am loving this thread and the clear attention to detail on this model!

One suggestion -- USN hull numbers used a specific face and Helvetica is not a good match. You can see the squared off/stenciled hull numbers in this low-res photo of RANDALL. This BuShips drawing shows the numerals as specified in 1937 with 96" hull numbers for DDs. Obviously during wartime the numbers were smaller (24" on most ships) and unshaded - though I'm personally not sure of the exact painting guide/dimensions for the APAs. The numbers on the photo of RANDALL are clearly taller than 24"!

Two font faces I've found that roughly approximate the numerals above are "USN Stencil" and "USAAF Stencil". Note that neither is a perfect match. Also, the RANDALL photo shows the lower left corner of the "4" with a 45 degree angle to it when the USN design sheet above shows a 90 degree angle at that position. Researchers more knowledgeable than I would need to comment on why there would be a difference -- my guess is that yards painted these numbers and had a certain degree of freedom in their exact application, or the numbers were painted at a forward base by the crew but obviously this is speculation.

Here are download links for the two fonts described above (they are free):
https://www.dafont.com/usn-stencil.font
https://www.dafont.com/usaaf-stencil.font

I hope this helps! Your work on this ship is so exacting and accurate and I've really enjoyed watching the progress in this thread!


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:45 pm 
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Dr PR posted a vey accurate set of specifications for the Navy Stencil font on this thread quite a while back. Actual photos of Randall during WWII certainly look very much like home made lettering and bear no resemblance to the Post War Navy Stencil and look very much like the product of some talented and talented Bosun with a 6th grade education. Post war she sports very precise standard lettering and numbers with shading and all! The Alligator Navy was perhaps a bit more ummm, relaxed? Nothing on this ship is permanent...

Indeed the plethora of variations of the 5" 38 mounts attests to the widespread success of this dual purpose weapon. Each mount on a ship would have it's own cam set to interrupt the firing mechanism should the train or point exceed the safe firing environment. Destroyers often had separate designs for the super firing and main deck mounts as the lower mounts can be subject to overpressure from the upper mounts . Some ships, especially those in the Alligator Navy, might not have sophisticated fire control. Ships in the Atlantic where little air threat was encountered sometimes even lacked fuze setters. Some tankers were fitted with enclosed mounts and MK 37 fire control (valuable units!). For the Haskell APA's, I don't know if the MK51 directors used for the 40 mm were also able to be hooked up to the 5" mount, this certainly was possible on some other warships.

The suggestion about checking out the Vallejo matt is a good one, I think some of the suppliers I have dealt with handle their line. One fellow doing a large scale Australian Training ship (very yacht like) was able to do lettering with his wife's Cricut machine and use it as a mask with decent results. I might check out Liquitex matt medium which is locally available?

Thanks to all for the useful suggestions! Plugging away on the 5" 38 at the moment.

Cheers: Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:17 pm 
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Quote:
Dr PR posted a vey accurate set of specifications for the Navy Stencil font on this thread quite a while back. Actual photos of Randall during WWII certainly look very much like home made lettering and bear no resemblance to the Post War Navy Stencil and look very much like the product of some talented and talented Bosun with a 6th grade education. Post war she sports very precise standard lettering and numbers with shading and all! The Alligator Navy was perhaps a bit more ummm, relaxed? Nothing on this ship is permanent...


Obviously I bow to your expertise on this (and also to DrPr's!)

Very interesting that these ships had non-standard numbers painted during the war. Navsource of course only has three basic photos of the ship in 1945 all of which look like the usual precise "Navy" painting.


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:03 pm 
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I did look again at the Navsource photos, one is obviously well post war, shaded numbers, photo in color, you can tell the era by the modified stack of the Essex Class ship in the distance. Yes I would say the bow numbers are somewhat squared off but certainly not meeting the Navy spec. Nice thing about press apply letters is they easily un press apply if necessary. I think the numbers are big enough someone could do them with a Cricut mask, someone.

Attachment:
Randall numbers.jpg
Randall numbers.jpg [ 177.28 KiB | Viewed 201 times ]


Not a great photo and somewhat squared off in a non regulation manner, but hard to tell. Not the USN Stencil, the PA might be in Helvetica, maybe.

Back to beating my head against the wall trying to fill in mysterious details of the open 5".

Cheers: Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:27 pm 
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Ian:

Thanks for the links for the fonts, useful information! Decal paper exists, but does anyone know how they print "WHITE"?

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:59 am 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
It was standard practice for the ship yard to weld a bead on the hull surface for the outline of the hull numbers and letters. That way the bosuns didn't have to think about the size and placement, they just had to fill in between the lines.

As for white letters, I know of only one printer that printed white, but I can't recall the name. It was ten or twenty years ago. It used wax "pens" (like Crayolas) and the print head melted the wax and spit it onto the surface. Waterproof! It could also print silver, gold and metallic colors.

For white home printed decals you must paint the surface white and apply the decals over it. But that isn't very easy to do for lettering.

My favorite way is to paint the surface white and then apply rub-on lettering - any color. Then spray on the background gray hull color. After the gray paint is dry use masking tape to remove the rub-on letters.

An example is attached. I needed a particular font - Railroad Gothic Condensed I think - in silver letters (they look white in the photo). No one made this in rub on letters and there were no decals in the right scale for this short line railroad. So I painted the side of the engine silver, rubbed on black Railroad Gothic Condensed letters of the appropriate size and over sprayed with black.

Notice how the paint flows into the grooves of the vent louvers and the edges of doors. The thickness is almost zero - a problem with rub-ons - and there is no shiny clear surround as with decals.

Phil


Attachments:
W&P lettering.jpg
W&P lettering.jpg [ 122.42 KiB | Viewed 190 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:09 am 
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Phil:

I remember dye sublimation printers which were popular for photography for a while before ink jets ran over the competition. I've never used one. The use of the press on letters as a mask works well. I made a small present for my Dad, one of the boats from his ship mounted on a curly maple board with his WWII ribbons and two of his gold plated fouled anchors. For that boat I did use the press applies as a mask method. It's a little tricky as one needs to just mist on the grey coat as the press applies do not seal that well as a mask. As I am not 100% there for a solution for the hull designation I decided not to go that far as yet, but did want something on the ship.

I'll guess that when the "font" was changed post war that they ground off the old weld beads? You could see the welding on the fantails in the reserve fleet where the ships name was still readable despite the covering of everything with that "grey stuff" .

Making progress on the 5" 38, the current mental puzzle is working out the faceting of the partial shield as it wraps around the side. Maybe a test print today?

Cheers: Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:29 pm 
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Not being a professional every one of these 3D items has required some iteration in development. Right now I have a test print of the 5" mount going. I did decide for the test , to print the barrel vertically. So in another five hours or so I'll see how it comes out. During the development period I'll probably find errors to correct and items to add. I would say this has been a more complex task than the Bofors Quad, which had simpler equipment and more information available.

I'll "Leccha" know how it comes out!

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:04 pm 
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Attachment:
5 inch 1.jpg
5 inch 1.jpg [ 152.54 KiB | Viewed 143 times ]
Attachment:
5 inch 2.jpg
5 inch 2.jpg [ 176.85 KiB | Viewed 143 times ]




Harrumph...

Here is the first test print of the 5"38 in 1:120, with a light shot of primer so you can see it.. It has a few issues, hopefully corrected in the second file.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:37 pm 
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which mount mark is that?


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 Post subject: Re: APA project
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Attachment:
5 inch 3.jpg
5 inch 3.jpg [ 290.49 KiB | Viewed 67 times ]


In the raw, just trimmed from the supporting trees. As these evolve, we find a few (at least I do) things that need changing. This one, the Mark Zero, Mod 3 has some beefing up of the front shield as some parts were too thin, some adjustment around the trunion, a middle rail added and the base split off and tapered to match the sheer of the fantail.

Heater in the shop quite last night (it's -8F this morning) so currently a little cool in the shop to paint right now.

Tom


Last edited by Fliger747 on Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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