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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:54 am 
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Pascal:

Kiosk is of course a term that makes sense, certainly a term used in a number of languages, one see's Kiosk's, termed such, in Russia with great frequency. Western languages often share many cognates. I have always enjoyed the expressions of various languages, even in Cyrillic. On some projects you referred to the superstructure as the "Castle", this is perfectly sensible and understandable. Hank and I began to refer to the superstructure on our LSM's as the Castle, which in this case was very much like the tower of a castle. Nautical nomenclature often has a rich history and may not make sense to the landlubber.

With my more primitive design program, an involved project can bring the computer to it's knees. In my case combining parts and saving helps sometimes. Parts such as the shape of a propeller or a coil spring seem to used a lot of computing resource.

Keep up the inspiring work! Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:14 pm 
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Pascal,

Your sub "sail" is looking good at this point - I'm quite impressed with the details you've already achieved!!!

I too can attest to the limits of CPU usage while doing 3D design in these freeware programs. Both DSM & Chitubox have conked out on me in the middle of design work or setting up a file for printing. In the case of DSM, I'm guessing that there are some design calcs that the CPU simply can't work thru, esp. if the design is far along - my guess is that these programs use a more BASIC programming approach than higher level languages in which they're written - thus a simple command routine in a loop won't get it done. And I could be wrong - it may have something to do with an entirely different set of parameters. In any case I haven't tried screw threads or ship props which I know will tie up the memory to a certain degree.

Not at the point of shifting to another design program yet - but there are times that tend to get tense when the program locks up and you're at a critical point - very frustrating.

Your modeling skills are always impressive!!

Hank

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BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:44 pm 
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Tks Tom, Hank.

I studied the question a bit while searching on the internet for informations about the performance of computers and 3D programs, a few months ago.

I didn't find it normal that the current computer processors, expensive like a recent Imac at several thousand euros and 64 giga of RAM, can't perform at this level.

By reading the 3D forums, I learned that only one core on multi-core processors is used most of the time, which explains this.
Calculations can only be processed in series and not in parallel.

This applies to all programs. It seems impossible for the moment to use the others permanently or for certain tasks.

https://develop3d.com/cad/multicore-for-cad/

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:13 pm 
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Today's progress on the top of the sail.

I have some modifications to apply on the front periscope n°1, for the rest it seems to hold the sea.

The antenna with the bulb is a VLF antenna,( Tks Mike).

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


Last edited by Iceman 29 on Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:13 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:18 pm 
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Nice job on the Snort! Later iterations of sub sails moved the "bridge" higher, to the top to better stay out of the spray. Earlier the bridge was directly on top of the coning tower allowing quick evacuation of the bridge. Later on with better detection gear the need for a cash drive was considerably reduced.

Cheers: Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:10 pm 
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The antenna with the bulb, if you mean shaped like an American football, is a VLF Loop. It allows reception of VLF radio broadcasts while the top of the sail is 10-15 feet below the surface without having to expose an antenna above the water. It is Omni directional and receive-only.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:40 pm 
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Here is a link to some info on VLF loop antennas for sub use, they look a bit different with a horizontal unit with a low profile fairing.

http://cdn.thomasnet.com/ccp/01150582/110357.pdf

Interesting discussion!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:43 pm 
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The DesignCAD program I use does use multiple CPU cores - it was rewritten for this 10-15 years ago. But I suspect it isn't very sophisticated multi-core code. I have used the Windows Process Explorer program to track performance and one core seems to get the lion's share of the work.

My 10 year old workstation was designed for CAD graphics operation. It has a 4.3 GHz 6 core i7 and I bought the fastest RAM available at the time (nearly 10 years ago now). The high bus speed RAM has as much or more effect on performance than the processor speed. It also has a Nvidia graphics card that is optimized for OpenGL and has drivers to use the hardware GPUS on the card. I was a beta tester for DesignCAD and my machine was the fastest of all the Beta testers for several years. There are some faster machine out there now. We used to create special 3D CAD files to test program operations and then run "races" to see how different computer configurations affected program speed. For complex 3D files the video processor/card was the most important element affecting program operation. Some of the simple graphics processors used in laptops were real slugs that ran at a fraction of the speed of a good graphics card!

Even with high performance hardware the CAD program can be very slow with large files. It is dependent upon the number of polygons in the active layers. The OK City drawing has about 2 million polygons and 22 million points. The initial 3D shaded rendering after the program is started can take an hour and a half. After that it is much faster (20-30 seconds). But if I add shadows the program has to check every polygon to see if it casts a shadow on every other polygon, and this can take a long time. And if there is any transparent material (glass) it has to check every polygon and it's shadow to see if they are visible through the glass. With a smaller 30 Mbyte drawing that normally shaded in a minute without transparency enabled I waited over an hour for rendering to complete with transparency enabled and finally terminated it.

Smooth surfaces are actually composed of many polygons, even if they aren't displayed. With DesignCAD I can control the number of polygons that are used to create things like cylinders. The program defaults to an insane number of facets around a circle - something like 400 - and defaults to creating a huge number of intermediate segments around curves. Years ago, when I had only 4 megabytes of RAM, I drew a simple hand rail on a ladder that was 1.3 Mbytes! It had 30 to 40 thousand polygons. I redrew it with 36 facets ti the circle and only 9 segments along the curved part and the handrail had about 400 polygons and was only a few kilobytes. It rendered the same as the 1.3 Mbyte version, but a lot faster.

So if you take care to reduce the total number of polygons, avoid complex lighting arrangements and don't use glass or mirrors things will run a lot faster on any machine. Disabling graphics options not needed for basic work (transparency, multiple light sources, shadows, etc.) will also speed things up.

Phil

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:11 am 
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MPERRY wrote:
The antenna with the bulb, if you mean shaped like an American football, is a VLF Loop. It allows reception of VLF radio broadcasts while the top of the sail is 10-15 feet below the surface without having to expose an antenna above the water. It is Omni directional and receive-only.


Tks Mike for this information. I will modify my message. :thumbs_up_1:

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:23 am 
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Tks Tom and Phil, very interesting informations too.

Fusion 360 uses a different way of working. You don't have to worry about polygons, unless you are working in mesh mode.
I find this much more intuitive.
What can slow down the project is also the history of all the actions that are recorded. However, it is very useful to modify an element in the timeline without having to modify everything. But it must take a lot of resources obviously.

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:27 pm 
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You don't have to "worry" about polygons in DesignCAD, but you can have some control over them if you wish. And it allows you to improve performance over the default settings.

David, I have an ordinary rotating disk drive (four of them). Although a SSD is faster that a rotating drive, it is still very slow compared to fast RAM - especially for writing. And the program work with data in RAM so a SSD wouldn't help much. That's why I bought the fastest RAM devices available (they are still slow compared to on-board cash on the CPU).

I have all programs on drive C: and my work files on drives D:, E: and F. As a consequence I do not have the lengthy delays that you get on single drive systems where the disk head has to shuttle back and forth between the program tracks and the data tracks (head movement is by far the slowest part of data/program access). So the drive C: heads stay on the program tracks and the heads of the other drives stay on the data tracks. The disks are defragmented every week so the program and data files stay fairly compact and are not scattered all over the drives.

I have been thinking of getting a SSD but I need to do some research on them. The slimeballs who sell computer stuff (and the self proclaimed computer gurus on the Internet) will tell you anything to separate the sucker from his money. But I have been designing computers for about 50 years and have used all sorts of FLASH memory devices from when they first appeared. They have all had questionable reliability compared to other semiconductor memory and have always been much slower. They have a limited number of write cycles before they become flaky, but this has improved steadily over the years. As they fail they compensate by discontinuing use of the bad areas, resulting in a steady decrease in usable memory.

FLASH is very good for the USB "memory sticks" we use - I am still using the first 250 Mbyte device I got in 1990. But the number of write cycles per unit time for these devices is very low. SSDs serving as prime computer storage may be written to hundreds of thousand times a second, and that can burn up the life cycles very quickly (the original FLASH devices were rated for only 100,000 writes before failure). I don't know what the current specs are.

I will be building a new workstation in the near future so I will investigate the reliabillity of SSD memory chips at that time.

Phil

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:10 am 
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Indeed the quality and size of the RAM is very important for 3D design.

SSDs increase the overall performance of the machine. They are up to date now and very efficient. I have a small 500 gig SSD on my IMac, it's more than enough, I only store system files on it and programs, no data, I have a synology NAS for that, much safer. And a system backup disk, automatic, Time Machine, on Mac. Very efficient in case of a total crash of the SSD.

I have an old IBM Thinkpad with Windows XP, which I use as a diagnostic case for my cars. I had changed its mechanical hard disk of 32 gig by a SSD, I did not recognize the machine after the replacement, Windows then starts 4 times faster. A good investment for me.

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:52 am 
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I added some details. I reduced the surface of the fin.

Then I started the test printing of the top of the sail without its accessories which will be printed separately.

This part is tricky to print correctly. I am also printing it with 20 micron layers.

Who will be the winner?   :cool_2:

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Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:41 am 
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As always, when printing, it's not a push button procedure. With launching a rocket, a lot goes into preparation for success before the button is pushed and the outcome awaited. It does seem a good idea to print several to ensure against the many possible failures. Orientation is always a big consideration, sometimes to help the printing process, other times a certain orientation will allow fewer supports, which can be difficult to remove from a complex part. In this case you have chosen to produce this as a number of separate parts, useful as some parts may be difficult to realize.

Yes I also like the SSD's, the speed and size of memory chips has improved immensely. I still have some ancient 256 MB cards, which could be used as sheet film to contain a single image.

Cheers: Tom


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:01 pm 
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Indeed Tom! :thumbs_up_1:

The prints went well. The top of the booth printed with an angle comes out the winner, but the horizontal one is not bad either, but you can see more the 20 micron layers.

I'm looking for the camouflage measurement from the era that was prevalent for USN subs, year 50 to 70.

AK proposes this:

The museum photos give a slightly bluer gray if accurate.. So I have a doubt.

RC258 Dark Sea Blue
RC220 Light Gull Grey FS 16440
RC222 Insignia White FS 17875
RC231 Field Green FS 34097

Image



Advances on 3D printing:

I have the #2 periscopes to reprint, with a bigger internal hole, because it got clogged, so I can put a piano wire through it to prevent it from bending, which happens with this kind of resin part.

For the periscope n°1, I was able to put the rod. It won't move anymore.

I mount two of them. One for me, the one on the right,

On the left you can see the parts that make up the top of the clump, I'll leave it to my friend Vincent to assemble it, it will be easier for the painting.


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Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:22 pm 
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Good looking parts. Doing masts and booms I had best luck with the thinner resin, but even such the holes would tend to clog. With the semi transparent rapid black i was using one could see the clogs, I had to begin by running the wire back and forth before the resin began to dry. Bubbles could clog the holes! But yes the wire reinforcement is a great reinforcement and with some resins the piece will shrink around the wire with drying and curing. Advantages in working with a larger scale.

Thanks for the update! Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:48 pm 
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TKs Tom for the trick! :thumbs_up_1:

Problem of the periscope N°2 solved, reprint with a larger hole, the piano wire fits by itself. The solid now, I left a little more gap for it to fit with the paint.

The sail one came out very well without a hitch, in one piece, like what, you have to spend time on the whole process. 

The porthole and the bubble will be printed separately in translucent resin.

By the way, I tested Bernard's friend method which consists in repainting the resin transparencies with a glossy varnish, the result is unexpected, no more yellowing and you can see through. Thanks for the trick.

I'm going to test this method with a professional high gloss car paint (2K) in a spray can, the result should be even better than with Humbrol.

Nothing is stuck yet.

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Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:59 am 
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For the paint I found some interesting things while searching as always, but it's never easy:

The grey is probably modern Haze Gray. Do not confuse with Haze Gray ww2 type 5H.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08492.htm

A brief illustrated history of submarine camouflage:

Excerpt:

"The decade of the 1950s saw a return to the overall black of pre world war 2 days. The changes took place in a peacetime environment, so individual boats may have started the period wearing a #27 haze grey and progressed through dark grey to black by 1960 with the color being changed during each yard refit period. Refits usually took place on a 3 year rotational basis.

A particular boat might be in light grey at some time during this period while her sister, fresh from a yard period, would be in black. There were also special cases where paint was changed to match specific circumstances.

For example; in 1958 Halfbeak (SS-352) was painted white for arctic operations and submarines assigned to the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean were often painted in lighter grey because the color was regarded as more suitable for that environment. Entemedor (SS-340) is known to have been painted in light grey as late as 1969.
"

I also noticed this interesting info while doing my research, a new LifeColors set has just been released for the following period including UA 655 US modern Haze Gray:

Image

Here you can see the size of the sail which takes up the entire large width of the Photon Mono X's tray. 190 mm long.

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:24 pm 
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3D printing of the bubble of the quarterdeck.

I printed several bubbles and ports to test the varnish, method recommended by my friend Bernard to remove the yellowing of the transparent resin after printing and give it much more transparency.

The best method after test is to paint this bubble with 2 or 3 coats of Humbrol gloss varnish n°1 and then paint again once dry with 2 coats of 2K professional body shop varnish. The Humbrol paint is used as a primer, because the body shop varnish had a tendency to react by making micro-craters with the resin. Humbrol gloss alone is not satisfactory. The 2K varnish stretches much more and is super smooth and shiny.

I am currently reprinting bubbles and scuttles with the Phrozen Mini 4k but at 20 microns instead of 50. This printer is dedicated to transparency.

It is good news to know that you can print good quality canopies with this process.

I plan to print seaplanes one day and I will need cockpit canopies then.

I think there is still room for improvement in transparency. But it's not bad.

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You can see the difference here on the left, without Humbrol varnish, only 2K.

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Here you can see the ports at the print output, not varnished. They are yellow and opaque.

Image

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Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:44 am 
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Well, this is it, the floor of the kiosk watch room of this submarine is the final point of this exciting drawing/project of this sail.

I didn't go into too much detail on this part because I only have one picture of the interior of this place.

I will start the sonar soon and then it will be finished.

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Oil canning galore!  :D

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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