The Ship Model Forum

Hank:

Progress! I expect that you will learn a lot and continue to improve your product as you proceed from the simple to the complex.

Keep up the good work! Looking forward to seeing the superstructure come together.

Regards: Tom

Thanks Tom!!!

Always nice to know it's moving fwd and not the other direction!!!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

It's a similar experience as with my laser-cutting tiny parts: it's not only the printing parameters, but a question of what is around the parts and how they are oriented. That's why one may need several runs with different configurations.

_________________
Eberhard

Former chairman Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau e.V. (German Association for Shipbuilding History)

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Welcome to the club, Hank!

The fewer bulkheads and reinforcements the better for the print and the wallet.

I started out like you with a lot of bracing.

Now I use very, very little. Just make some fillets on the joints of the bulkheads so that it is extremely strong when assembled.

At the beginning..

T2 Tanker:





Later.. With some experiences.





SS Hydrograaf:

_________________
Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ

Pascal,

Thanks for the comments & reminders - always helpful. I also appreciate your photos to accompany the commentary. I think that while this current setup is working for the full sections, I'll adapt as the sections become narrower, etc. towards the ends. Yes, it does eat up some resin, that's for sure - but, so far I'm only having to print one edition of each part as I took extra time to do the design and that seems to have paid off.

Here are a couple other shots of the hull sections:

This shows the internal face that's been sanded smooth and one just out of the printer - it will need sanding prior to assembly.

These are only clamped together, no permanent assembly at this point.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

You have to refine the walls, because when it is too thick there is more stress and deformation. 1,8 mm to 2 mm is good for 1/200 or 1/100.

The idea of printing directly on the plate is the best in my opinion by experience, moreover the shell prints better vertically. There is just a little more work for sanding, and you have to take into account the clinging layers which lengthen the hull section slightly.

Don't forget to drill a small hole at the base to avoid suction during printing, as shown in the picture, which would cause a bad surface finish on the outside of the hull and maybe even a lengthening.

Some supports for the bulwark are missing on these pictures, I wasn't using Chitubox at the time.







More simple, it work great! :



Assembly of half shells and sections.



Suction problems.. No hole at the base of the hull.

_________________
Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ

Pascal,

Thanks for the further info/pictures/etc. - I'll take that into account as I do further work on these parts.

The test section did print out ok - at least for the purposes I had intended - i.e., whether printing directly on the platen would produce a true, flat surface - and it did! So, for my main objective - it achieved what I was looking for:

Yes, there would be cleanup of the adjacent faces/edges, etc., but not necessary as this piece will be discarded - it's only a test piece. So, from here on out, I will print directly on the printing platen and not let the print program create a raft with supports. The supports will only be used as needed as shown in this view of the same part:

Whether or not a part needs supports will depend solely on it's own shape and requirements.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank:

I can see where Pascal printed his sections with the length o=f the ship being the vertical axis on the printer. This might be a better procedure, but not possible with the scale of your ship and available size of the platen. Perhaps at the bow as the hull narrows this will be possible?

Cheers: Tom

Tom,

I'm now printing the 2nd edition of the P/S section after making a few design changes. These are being printed directly on the build platform rather than using a raft w/supports. Both have come out acceptable (the bulge of resin is inside, so won't be seen) and I'll move to redo the next two sections fwd.

As you can see, there is a bulge of resin inside - I'm thinking about how to eliminate this in the next section pieces (not that it really matters, but more from why is it happening). It may have to do with the outside wall not having a lip on both ends of the piece, just a guess at this point. Otherwise, the part meets all dimensions and came out nicely - minor sanding, etc. The center face (one w/holes) came out perfectly flat (as desired) and can be glued directly to it's mate to form the complete hull section.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Nice work Hank! On a positive note I was able to finally get the latest version of the Chewey Box installed and operating. I like it a lot better than the Anycubic slicer. This required a trip into town to Barnes and more Barns for internet. By iteration I discovered that one could import a previously sliced file into the Photon product with good results? Wh knew (not myself!). I rather like the very sharp corners that the Rapid black gives and this printer produces a smooth print. For example I have reprinted some favorite items such as a MK 37 director (1n 1:120) and Hank's Magnum Opus, the twin 3"50 AA mount. On the MK 37 the hand and foot rails (Non OSHA Compliant) straighten very nicely from their limp spaghetti aspect when pulled from the ribs. Fp Phil, yes a little striation visible on top in harsh bright sunshine, otherwise not. I think with the better ability to place supports that the success ratio will improve greatly.



A crummy "eye phone" photo, but you can see the minute striations in the harsh sunlight on the top deck. To the naked eye it looks quite pleasing. And yes I am aware that it doesn't currently have bloomers for the rangefinder horns, sailmakers are constructing new ones... I am sure Phil's will look much better, especially in his bigger scale.

Maybe I'll collect enough miscellaneous hardware to justify building a hull under it, such as Hank is doing with his T-3 Tanker.

Best regards: Tom

Tom,
Thanks!! I've now gotten both 1st sections CA'd together and a thin line of CA is now drying to fill the very tiny gap in the bottom of the hull between the pieces (will be sanded later). Glad your new printer is working, and your parts look very nice. I agree that I would go with the sharp edge that RB resin gives as opposed to the smoother gray results.

I've got the P/S 2nd sections all ready to print once I'm finished with the current crop of STODDARD parts, of which the R/S Room still eludes me for a final good edition - that comes tomorrow. Will be a busy print week as these hull sections (one per print session) take 8.5 hours to print.

Only other comment re. the overhead striations on your Mk. 37 would be that once it's painted, they may tend to disappear.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Tom,

The director looks nice! The slight jaggies you mention aren't noticeable in the photo and likely won't be noticeable on a model. Is this grey resin or painted Fast Black resin?

Hank,

It looks like the side with the holes was attached to the print platform - is this correct?

If so I suspect (but am not certain) that the bulge may be caused by pressure from resin that has flowed under the print after finishing a slice. While the platform is lowering to expose another slice extra resin is trapped between the FEP film and the printed object. The thin print layers are flexible and bulge away from the FEP film where there are no supports, trapping extra resin between the film and the earlier printed layers. So when the slice is exposed it comes out thicker than it should be in unsupported areas. Successive slices increase the bulge each time. I have had similar problems in a number of prints where I least expected trouble!

If this is the problem, adding some supports (at least one every half inch or 10 mm) should reduce the problem. But this is the same problem Tom has mentioned - not being able to get a really flat surface on the side near the print platform when supports are used.

But as you said, it is internal to the hull and really doesn't matter - except it is annoying!

****

I have been running a bunch of test prints with the Fast Black resin, experimenting with different retract and lift speeds, and no matter what I have tried I still see the ugly "flat" bottoms regardless of how many supports I use. I have successfully increased the lift and retract speeds without print failures. But nothing has come out perfect so far! Of course, the same is true for the grey resin I have been using.

When I have some conclusions I can believe about lift speed (the speed at which the print is separated from the FEP film) and retract speed (the speed that the platform moves to raise the separated print to allow resin to flow in under it) I will post them.

Also, I think (but have yet to find a satisfactory answer) the retract speed is also the speed at which the printer lowers the platform back toward the FEP film, but it changes to the lift speed when it gets really close to the actual print position for the new slice.

Does anyone know for sure what lift and retract mean?

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Dr Pr wrote:

(condensed to save space!)

Phil,
Thanks - Yes, the perforated face was intended to be directly attached to the platform w/o any supports. This is the inside face that mates with the other side part and is glued together, so I wanted this face to be perfectly flat - and it IS!!! My hunch was that what you described above is what was going on - in essence, the bulging side is inundated with extra resin that has no place to go. I appreciate your more "clinical" explanation however as this gives us all a more technical reason as to why this "annoyance" is occurring.

For the hull pieces I'm using the Matte Gray ABS-like Resin as it gives a smooth, less crisp surface which for the hull works out nicely. On my superstructure and deck equipment I always use the Rapid Black for the extra sharp detail features it provides.

As for the difference in "retract" and "lift" speeds - I really haven't been able to determine which applies to the correct operation. I guess the "retract" speed would be when the build platform is moving up from its lowest current position and then somewhat moves down again to the next programmed location for a new layer to print, but it's actually hard to define which is which and at what point. So, your R&D on this "phenomenon" will be greatly appreciated if and when you are able to come to a satisfactory conclusion.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Retraction speed:

When the platen rises from its exposure position: the retraction speed is the speed at which the platen detaches the workpiece from the FEP film, then follows the lifting speed to the programmed maximum lifting position, 5 or 8 mm.

This retraction speed is important in the process, as it prevents the supports from being broken by too much mechanical stress during the peeling process.

I am in these settings, with my new printer Anycubic Photon Ultra ( No LCD screen).

_________________
Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ

Pascal,

Thanks for the explanation of the "retract" and "lift" speed - that makes things a bit clearer, etc. I can see where the retraction speed would be possibly more important in order to preserve the part w/o having it come loose from the build platform, etc.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

I've now got the 1st hull section assembled -

I'm waiting now for the CA in the CL to harden and then will sand smooth. Tomorrow/Wed. I will print the 2 parts for sect. 2 and so on. At least, for the next few straight sections. Then, things will get difficult....

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank:

Congratulations! A very modern concept of modular ship building. At the hardware store I was able to get 4 oz (each) bottles of epoxy which is great for such jobs as it is very strong and fills any gaps or unevenness and cures reliably in a short time. I also used it for casting small parts before I got into 3D printing.

Cheers: Tom

Tom,
Thanks - it's still drying - I do have accelerator with this brand of CA, but haven't used it yet, letting the CA sit overnight to harden (cure?). I've got to also do the seam in the deck so I may go ahead and do it today, as well and then do the sanding all at once. The accelerator, I think, if for joining the parts, not seam fill in, etc.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Good job! Hank.

I use CA too but with a spray accelerator. It dries in 10 seconds.

I use a two component car body filler afterwards. It sands well and the surface is spotless.

_________________
Pascal

•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ

Thanks, Pascal!!

The reason I did NOT use the accelerator was that this particular CA (Starbond Medium CA Glue, Amazon.com) is a slower drying glue, thus allowing for a bit more movement before the glue hardens. I did buy the accelerator for it but haven't used it yet.

Since I have 6 of the 1st edition hull sections printed, I may experiment with those when it comes to puttying the section edges - as they are not going into the actual model, they will work perfect for R & D etc. on glues and so forth. I have both Testors tube putty (don't really care for it) and Bondo putty (works pretty well) but may look for another type of putty. I do have some of the small 2-tube types sold at Lowe's (J.B. Weld) and I may try some of that as it is med. gray in color (as are the parts). But, those tubes are almost gone so I'll need to replenish my putty locker

I've made changes in the internal supports for these sections so at this point they're "surplus" and will be used for CA & putty experiments. As designed, they're also not quite scaled correctly so wouldn't work anyhow.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48