The Ship Model Forum

Tom,
Quite so! The ends of the hull will certainly be challenging to say the least.

Yes, GLOMAR EXPLORER was quite the oddity - but, in all fairness, those little aliens, er....I mean "Fellas" at Area 51 have been doing a bang-up job of R&D on our behalf for at least a half century or more now. They've certainly earner their keep!!!

No doubt their services will be needed in the near future, seeing what's currently under foot

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Briefly considering doing DMS 14, USS Zane, the ship that Herman Wouk served on as Communications Officer and based his novel Caine Mutiny on his service there. The flush decker's really had a straight sheer! Only reason I mention this is the possibility exists that I could print the hull as you are doing, but perhaps wood, for which I have a good shop, might be better.

Cheers: Tom

Tom wrote:


Not a bad choice, Tom - I looked that one up on NavSource so at least there is a modicum of info on her + the various sheets of plans you have on hand.

Today was a Spring Out of Doors Day, so little accomplished on the modeling front, except..... - I did get a shot of the current hull assembly as it stands (or sits) as of today:

Tomorrow I'll print the next section's port half and then take measurements to see if that section (#4) is actually correct on the fwd end of it. Which is why it is not being considered for attachment at this point.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Well, after printing the port side, sect. 4 it turns out this section DID need narrowing at the fwd end to account for a change in hull width/shape. So, as I had already assembled the two halves and then glued them to the overall assembly, surgery was needed to remove 25mm from the newest forward sect. This was done using both my Jim Saw and then my larger Dremel tool with a grinding wheel, and then smoothing the face flat with my 14" belt sander (yep, it really makes a nice, smooth, flat surface ) - not a pretty picture, but it worked:

The modified new 25mm section will be added to the fwd face of the assembly tomorrow after I clean it up, sand, and so forth this piece. I've designed the next 50mm long section (#5) and will print those halves Fri/Sat as each one is another day long print session. This time, I will join the two halves of sect. 5, and then temp. tape the section to the assembly to see visually how well it fits rather than gluing it right off the bat

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank:

This project at the current rate will keep you off the streets at night for all Summer! But progress is progress, anything heading in the right direction these days is an anomaly! Could be worse, you could be skipper of Muskva.

Cheers: Tom

NYET!!! Comrade Tom!! MOSKVA in drinkski, swim with fishskis!!! NO more threatski!!!

Hank off streetskis and working in shopski! LOL!!!

Well, if the reports of UKR using a drone to distract the cruiser's main defensive RADAR system is true, then (and let me say here I know very little about the electronics/operation, etc. of RADAR systems) it would seem that the Ruskies are really far behind everyone else and their ability to recognize, track, and destroy incoming threats is basically nil. They're about as successful as Brandon is on our side of the world. Looks to me like our AEGIS system ships could run circles around the RU navy - in more ways than oneski!!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

"Reliable Sources" report Putin retaliated with a stealth underwater attack on "Sullivans", left taking on water, Glory to the Fatherland! Major salvage operation, hope it's not the end!

Tom

This is a bit off topic, but a follow on to other off topic comments.

The Moskva (ex Slava) was the first of the early 1980s vintage Slava class cruisers. I read they were upgraded in the early 2000s but the best of their electronics systems was about 20 years old, and the weapons were all late 1970s designs.

The ship had six gatling gun type anti aircraft guns for close in defense (like our CWIS) that were supposed to destroy incoming anti-ship missiles. Looks like they failed! This would be a failure in the threat detection radars and control systems.

But any ship has a problem detecting fast low flying targets because of background clutter from the sea (waves) and the fact that the horizon for low altitude targets is very close (I speak from experience). From the time a missile or airplane comes over that horizon (6-8 miles on a good day) to when it reaches the ship is only a few minutes. Deciding if a contact is real or just reflection from waves takes time. If their weapons control folks were distracted by another incoming target they may well have been looking the wrong way when the missiles appeared.

I don't know about the Russians, but our Navy doesn't operate with the CWIS system enabled unless a threat is expected. It can easily open fire on a nearby friendly ship, airplane of fishing boat. The Moskva was reported to be working with other Russian navy ships and had been close to an island, so they may have had their system disabled.

One other thing about the Slavas and some other Russian ships - they carried large anti-ship missiles in launching tubes on deck. The 16 Bazalt anti-ship missiles were ram jet powered with solid state boosters - quite similar to the Talos missiles I worked with. Each missile contained a large high explosive warhead, class B explosive solid state rocket engines, and liquid jet fuel for the ramjet. It was all sitting out on deck as an easy target for any missile or airplane that got close. A hit on one of those things would have caused an explosion, likely setting off the other seven on that side of the ship. That would make for a very bad day on board!

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Well why not? Phil: Thanks for the insights. The external missile armament looks very impressive from an external view, reminds me of the huge missile tubes paraded in the May 9 parades I have been to, most likely S 400's. The irony was the only tank in the parade was a lone T-34, belching huge clouds of smoke from it's diesel. For ages US and GB had the seas mostly to them selves without a naval war, projecting power with the carrier battle groups that have dominated naval power projection since 1950 or so. The war in Ukraine has demonstrated that armored columns may have lost their luster in the way that aircraft tipped the pre eminence of the Battle line. The question is how various missile technologies affect the utility of large surface ships, as much as we may like them. A good question as we have invested our maritime treasure in just a few flight decks. Agin a ships fuel and armament may be it's biggest enemy. Without any munitions aboard I suppose Bismarck could have punched small holes in Hood all day long.

I tried to check on Moskva on the Moscow Times, but not a word as they have been pretty squashed as a semi independent news source. I would be surprised if the people of that largest European city have any idea that their namesake vessel sails no more. Good sized ship, about Okie Boat size.

Anyway Hank, keep plodding along on the tanker just be careful to keep fine alignment of the bulkheads when sanding, a small misalignment will be big trouble.

Regards: Tom

Phil,
Well, I'm glad you chimed in on the discussion re. the missile systems, RADAR control, etc. - you see this was my intent all along (sort of a decoy to lure you in ) - OH MY!!! Looks like we're all taking a page out of the UKR's playbook!!!!! Huzzah, Huzzah!!! Now, if the inhabitants of Snake Island can only piss off the CO of PYOTR VELIKIY enough for him to steam off shore, perhaps they can pull off an Arab Spring on the Ruskies - a Twofer!!! Seriously though, I appreciate the info on these systems as there isn't a lot of common knowledge about the workings of all this equipment, so a discussion now & then is beneficial to all.

Tom,
Yes, sanding the faces on these sections is both a necessary but delicate operation in order to keep the face FLAT, w/o distortion. Actually, using my larger 14" belt sander is easier as I can make one good pass and it's done. Today I'll print the stbd side revised 25mm long sect. 4 AGAIN, since I dropped the original yesterday and had irreparable damage. Resin parts are not like styrene parts and have very little give-n-take. Tomorrow then I'll be back to printing the next fwd. sections P/S.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Wonderful discussion, fellas, and really terrific model, Hank!

_________________
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-Steve L.

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Steve,
Thanks! However, on the model end of it - you may be a bit premature - this whole thing is still not quite in what I would categorize as an actual build at this point. IF I can accomplish a suitable hull, then I may consider this an actual model build.

I do appreciate knowing that you've checked in and so forth - glad you think it's "worthy" as Wayne would have said!!!

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls:

It's a brave adventure into (for us) a new technology. There are two reasons that this hull is printed in halves; first Hank's model width is greater than his platen size, second the program we use for 3D design does not have a mirroring function. The mirroring is done in Chitubox which does have a mirror function. For my current project my platen is large enough to print the cross section (smaller ship) and I am mirroring and joining the hull halves in Chitubox by careful alignment. At least that obviates the necessity to join the halves along the centerline. Hank is making a considerable effort in time and materials and a great learning experience for us all as he continues with his adventure into the unknown (to us).

Keep up the good work!

Tom

Tom,

Shall we say - Into the Blue Horizon - where no man has delfted to go? Sort of a pun on Delft (ship) - as I still can't find the start button to that program!!!!

And to anyone out there - has anyone seen any info at all on the new Phrozen Sonic Mighty 8K Printer??? I got a pre-order email from Phrozen but it doesn't give any details. I'm not one to jump on a "deal" unless I know WHAT the deal consists of - in many cases it would be a big mistake to go for it - however, I would like to know about this new printer.

Going from the amidships AFT, the next 3 sections (50mm long ea.) will be repeats of the sect. #1, as there is no change in either hull width or shape. However, I am going to take the DSM file for sect. 1 (stbd side only) and redo it internally to see if I can save some resin by thinning some walls and so forth. Looking at the main deck plan, the shape of the hull is a rather long, gentle curve, that when divided into 50mm lengths, could be done in straight sections as the curve is so slight that this might work without a whole lot of notice - this of course, is after the 3 straight sections are in place. At the same time, the hull itself is narrowing looking from the stern forward at the actual shape of the hull. So this is where things could get dicey. As Tom has said - it's all a bit of trial & error at this point.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

So, I modified the first stbd. section a bit:

I thinned the side & bottom inside panel thickness to 1.5mm instead of 2mm. The lower hull curve wall needed to be left intact due to possible torpedo penetration by Ruskie U-boats .
Then, I made the side wall internal ribs concave instead of straight - this is an attempt to keep the resin from building up while printing as it has done up to this point as the part is printed with the hull side at top. This orientation leaves the ribs to retain the resin sort of like the way the insides of caves are covered in bat guano . Hopefully, the concave shape will eliminate some or all of this excessive waste of material, although in the long run, it isn't all that much. Lastly, I thinned the low bulwark down by 0.25mm to a thickness of 0.75mm instead of 1.00mm.

Next week, once other parts have been printed, etc. I'll get to this one and see how this turns out.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank:

A thought on doing the sheer of the hull sections in DSM. The upper section of the hull section can be extruded on a sweep line, which could be a gentle curve matching the sheer line of the main deck. Then do the bottom half of the hull section as a straight extrusion.

Tom

Tom,
Quite right - I've been doing that to create the sheer once I have the solid created for the hull piece. This would necessitate making the deck a separate piece (layer/color) so it could be turned off during the sweep operation.

About to go out and check on the printer.

Hank

edit - 6:45pm - print came out fine, now drying overnight. Tomorrow I'll print the port side for sect. #5, another all day session.

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hank,

One thing you could do to reduce resin volume is to print the internal longitudinal ribs with a triangular cross section. This would build up resin thickness and strength with successive layers and it should support the side walls fine. Also, you could use both longitudinal and vertical ribs in a "#" pattern on the inside of the hull side for more support.

I would add a few supports for the ribs to support them as they are first printing to reduce flexing or "drooping" from the forces peeling them from the FEP film. Vertical (to the print plate) supports would serve to support the ribs and you wouldn't need any cross supports between them.

****

Were you talking about the Phrozen Sonic Mega 8K printer - $1,999.00?

The specs are interesting. The pixel size is 0.043 mm - just a bit smaller that the common 0.05 mm pixels. So not much resolution gain there. But it will print layers from 0.01 mm to 0.3 mm, and that gives quite a range of resolutions (30 x).

The print area is 13" x 7.28". Maximum height is 15.75 inches. To put that in perspective I could print my 1:96 Cleveland class cruiser hull (610 feet long by 66 feet wide) in 5 full width/height sections (8.3" beam, 4.6" deep, 15" high). In fact, I could even include the first two layers (O1 and O2 levels) of the superstructure in those prints!

But the maximum print speed is said to be 70 mm per hour - I really don't know what that means because print time should vary with exposure time and that depends upon the resin. Surely this isn't the maximum lift/retract speed?! And it doesn't say what the layer thickness is for that 70 mm per hour - thicker layers means fewer slices to print and faster print times but coarser resolution. But the maximum part height is 400 mm (15.75") so the minimum print time for a full height part at 70 mm per hour would be 5.7 hours. I could live with that for a 15" long part!

Phil

_________________
A collision at sea will ruin your entire day. Aristotle

Phil,
Thanks for that idea - I've got the next (moving Aft) sections designed and ready to print, but on the FOLLOWING section aft (Sect. B) I'll incorporate a # pattern of triangular shaped ribs (and post a picture of this arrangement) and see how this works. As long as the exterior wall is correct, the internal part is non-critical. I'll also post photos of the Sect. A internals as that's the one that has the concave ribs.

About your Phrozen printer comment - NO! - the Phrozen Sonic Mega 8K ($1999.00) is a current model and I've looked that over, but it's way too expensive for my needs, and doesn't really give you a much larger build platform for all that dough!! Their Mighty 6K has a larger build platform and runs currently @ $599.00 on Amazon. My suspicions are that the Mighty 8K is a somewhat larger edition of this printer with the obvious increase in pixel definition for more detailed parts, etc. But at this date, they have provided no further information publicly unless one of the 3D Printing websites that follows all this stuff has either been given advanced information or has ferreted this out for themselves.

Regarding your H. I. Chapelle reference on Tom's thread - Yes, that article I read way back in the 1960s when I got my edition of his History of the American Sailing Navy. I agree completely and that's one of the reasons I chose to build a 1:48 scale model of U.S. Sloop of War PEACOCK (1813) rather than "another" CONSTITUTION, etc. I tend to try to find the "other" ships in the navy to build models of as they also played important roles in our history but may not ever get the glory the main dozen or so always seem to get. Glad you mentioned that little known fact re. Chapelle's comments.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

The ship modeler is a historian of sorts. We don't need more histories of a few luminaries, unless new information comes to light. I did build a large model of Missouri, however I did have a small connection with her, just as Hank has a larger connection with New Jersey. One of my cousin'd father was a plank holder on Fletcher so if he was a modeler, he could be excused for building a popular ship. Another gent I knew had been a plank holder on Hornet for her brief career and on and on.

The difference between USN's great Blue Fleet and every other Navy was logistical support. Literally the fleet that came to stay. The great General US Grant had the army that came to stay, they might get "whooped", but the next morning they were still there.

Your tanker was as important as any combatant out there. Loss of Neosho though by mistake of the Japanese, was a serious crimp in the flexibility of Frank Jack Fletcher to continue to "hang out". There were various bottlenecks in ship construction, one of the big ones was drafting capacity to turn ideas into buildable plans. Perhaps this was part of the reason for ship yards to just "do stuff", after all there was a "War On".

Maybe all the real passion in ship modeling gets wrapped up in detailing, turning micro brass door knobs or whatever, but one has to pay the piper to get there by building a hull.

Keep up the good work! Tom