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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 12:25 pm 
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Location: Severna Park MD USA
Making parts for a 1:36 scale RC square-rigger is an industry unto itself. The big thing about 3D printing is having the files to print, and the vendors don't carry much for 1850's sailing ships in this scale. Even as popular as 1:35 scale figures are, there's nothing out there as far as sailors, Marines, and officers (I could use Mexican-American War figures, but no one does those either). What I need to learn to model is the decorative filigree and vinework of the head and transom carvings (I have a 1:36 scale British frigate needing some love as well)

Attachment:
File comment: The model all this is going on, jury rigged to go sailing before I got the 3D printer
con20190423f.png
con20190423f.png [ 387.95 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Anchors and boat howitzer in 1:36
Steering wheels in 1:24ish
Printed with Siraya Tech Build Smoky Black

con20220309.jpg
con20220309.jpg [ 364.76 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: 10" shell gun on pivot mount
Printed in one piece with Siraya Tech Build Sonic Grey

con20220315a.jpg
con20220315a.jpg [ 370.65 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Steps up the side
con20220322e.jpg
con20220322e.jpg [ 188.06 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Shroud-fairleads (sizing trucks), bullseyes are some of the piles of little things the model will need, like shells for blocks, and a load of things I probably haven't thought of yet.
con20220325a.jpg
con20220325a.jpg [ 220.24 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: In a drawing of the ship in 1859 there's some odd circles on the stern, between stern ports. I finally figured out they were Night Lifebuoys.
Here's my interpretation of one that measures 1 inch tall and 3/4 inches wide.

con20220404g.jpg
con20220404g.jpg [ 245.73 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Boat howitzer, oars, and the launch's rail with gun pivot points all 3D printed as well as the pilasters and pin rail in the background.
con20220405b.png
con20220405b.png [ 374.67 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Found some Civil War sailors and printed them as-is. I think I can alter them in the file, and after printing, to fit my boat.
The ship's wheel is also 3D printed, and the gun from above has gotten a first coat of paint.

con20220405c.png
con20220405c.png [ 279.97 KiB | Viewed 1258 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:22 pm 
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Large scale ship looks great afloat!

Still futzing with the new printer. Went back to use the "Anywho" software slicer. Printed a set of 3" 50 carriages and separate barrels as shown earlier. Carriages printed perfectly, barrels only leaving a set of thin base rafts in the tank. What I am wondering is if the position on the platen was the factor, I think the large platen created rather dramatic fluid dynamics and may have washed out the parts toward the center. Trying a reprint with the barrels along the side of the platen as an experiment. Perhaps a couple of anchor larger supports are needed?

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:57 am 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Tom,

Try more supports. Are you printing vertically or horizontal (or small angle)?

I printed a cylindrical part vertically with a half dozen supports around the bottom, and it failed with a blob on the FEP film. I doubled the number of supports and it printed OK.

With horizontal (or nearly so) cylindrical parts the cross section area increases dramatically as the job proceeds. You need enough supports to take the strain of the largest cross section area being pulled from the FEP film. Unfortunately this leaves a lot of pock marks on the surface of the part.

You can reduce the total number of supports by increasing the contact area of the individual support and the part. I guess you could figure the contact area of different contact diameters and compare large contact diameters to small diameters to determine how you can reduce the number of supports and keep the same contact area. I just add a lot of supports and live with the blemished surface - which I try to make an internal surface that isn't seen after the model is finished.

One thing that has puzzled me is that in some of the parts that have a large number of supports many of these are not actuality connected to the printed part after the job is done. It looks like the narrowest part of the contact area just didn't print. This tells me I really don't need all the supports.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:00 am 
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Location: Paris
I can understand the rationale, that assembly of tiny parts can be difficult and actually spoil them to some extent - I constantly have this problem with my traditionally manufactured parts. Either they don't stick together properly or I have glue oozing out.

On the other hand, painting in different colours is so much easier when the parts are separated accoding to colour. I gather it doesn't bother to 'grey-line' builder too much.

I can also understand the rationale, that by printing complex parts in one piece, you may need fewer supports, because the constituent parts may support each other.

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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:05 am 
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Location: Bretagne, France
Indeed, there is by experience a judicious choice to make to group or not a certain number of elements between them. Sometimes the paint is the reason, sometimes the elements will be better printed separately.

On recent warships everything is almost the same color, but on merchant ships or old warships this is not the case and it complicates the painting of elements sometimes.

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:37 am 
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"... or old warships this is not the case and it complicates the painting of elements sometimes." - tell me :big_grin:

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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:59 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
The idea of what to include (or eliminate) in the design of a major part now becomes a discussion of its own. As pointed out, most 20th century and newer warships are pretty much painted in a few basic colors - which allows for the INCLUSION of small, detailed items to be incorporated into a larger part design, thus saving time in design and printing.

Case in point - while designing parts for USS STODDARD, I discovered that I did need additional details for items commonly found on the bulkheads, but which were not included in the kit I was using as a starting point - i.e. - elec. boxes and sound powered phone connection boxes. So, after determining the general size & nature of these items, I created them in 3D and printed separate parts for these as needed:
Attachment:
144 scaled T-3 Elec. Conn. & SP Phone Boxes_2.JPG
144 scaled T-3 Elec. Conn. & SP Phone Boxes_2.JPG [ 14.24 KiB | Viewed 1215 times ]

As these are scaled parts, I can use these on my T-3 tanker project as well. The tanker also had additional controller boxes located here & there, so I created those, as well:
Attachment:
Bulkhead 4 Button Controller.JPG
Bulkhead 4 Button Controller.JPG [ 13.28 KiB | Viewed 1215 times ]

Since these parts are painted the same as the adjacent bulkhead, it wasn't necessary to print separate parts but rather include these into the overall design of the deckhouse at hand. In doing so, I've eliminated any possibilities of incorrect location of these items later, as well as simplifying the overall design process time. Once the deckhouse has been sprayed the proper color, it's only a minimal amount of time to carefully pick out the button/knob/cover points in flat brass to finish the painting end of things.

For extremely small and detailed parts (wenches, windlasses, deck components, etc. - I usually print those as one piece and then spend more time with a fine brush picking out the various colors needed.

Hank

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Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:15 am 
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Printing as a single piece of separate sometimes is an issue of scale. Very small parts can be difficult to assemble accurately where was in a larger scale this will not be as much of an issue. I was surprisingly able to successfully print my 40 mm quad mounts (with shield) in 1:192, as well as the 20 mm Orlikon mounts. Assembling these at a small scale would be far less satisfactory. something which I had earlier learned using commercial units which required assembly.

I seem to be making both peace and piece with the new printer, as a trial horse (Not hoarse from coarse language) using the above printed 3" 50. Reconfiguring the settings has paved some benefits. So far I have achieved successful prints using both the provided slicer and Chitubox. I printed the items near the edge of the large platen aligned with their axis pointing outward. Further printing experiments will determine whether or not flow of resin is an issue and further platen speed adjustments are needed. Using the same general support design and density that I have been using for a couple of years now.

The adventure continues! Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 10:29 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Tom,

Glad that you're finally able to realize completely printed parts - if you get a chance, post a photo of the printed part on the build platform so we can see what you've described as to the orientation of the part on that surface.

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:21 pm 
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Attachment:
Platen.jpg
Platen.jpg [ 151.24 KiB | Viewed 1205 times ]


Orientation of pieces at the edges of the very large platen, aligned so the flow direction goes with the least drag for the barrels.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:27 pm 
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Tom,

Thanks, that helps a lot in seeing how your description actually appears. Quite a contrast from a picture of the same objects on the OLD printer. Doing good work here - kudos!!!

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:03 pm 
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Posts: 1645
Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Tom,

Orienting the parts to achieve a faster flow of resin into the space between the part and the FEP film is a good idea. I would think it is more important n printers with large print areas. Resin will have to flow farther to fill in the larger area and positioning parts to interfere the least with the flow would allow a better distribution of the resin during the time the paint is raised above the FEP film.

****

I have been searching on line to learn what some of the Chitubox settings really do. My earlier thoughts on the motion of the print platform weren't correct.

Lift Speed. This is the rate at which the print platform lifts after a slice is printed/cured. The same Lift Speed is used through the entire Lift Distance.

Lift Distance is the height the print platform rises above the FEP film to allow more resin to flow in between the print and the FEP film.

Retract Speed is a misnomer. It is the speed at which the print platform lowers to position the print platform and printed object for the next slice exposure.

So there really are only the two speeds, one up and the other down.

****

If your printed parts are separating from the print platform you may be using a Lift Speed that is too fast. Faster speeds increase the "peel" force necessary to separate the printed slice from the FEP film.

Another cause of failure to adhere to the print platform is short bottom layer exposure times. "Bottom Layers" are the first slices that are printed, and are in direct contact with the print platform. Something like 4-8 bottom layers are used to create a strong attachment to the print platform. Longer exposure times cure the resin better and create greater adhesion to the print platform. Short Bottom Exposure times may create a weak layer that cannot take the peel forces generated when the printed part separates from the FEP film.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:01 am 
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As seemed to be the case when I first began printing, the printer has started working without much change on my part. Of course that was two years ago, back when the planet still had 12 years left? As a test piece I am currently printing the MK 4 radar unit used on the MK 37 director. A common unit during the war. Alaska has two of these, which I replaced the PE units with printed ones. Now I think I will upgrade the earlier printed ones with the new ones, mostly from the same files, but they are much more fine and dainty and will add to the overall effect of the model. There does seem to be a limit to fine and dainty and the rather flexible Model (goopy) Gray resin becomes quite rubbery at small scales. The Rapid Black would probably be stiffer here but that's not really that important. The one's on Missouri use a parabolic dish (forgot the mark number) and so will probably remain as is.

With really fine items careful consideration of supports is necessary so as to not make them un removable. Individual placement is optimal. The latest Chitubox shows a ghost of where the support will be placed, very useful!

Cheers: Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:21 am 
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The early parabolic antenna radars on the Mk 37s were Mk 25 radars. The Mk 9 Mod 0 parabolic antenna dish was a highly perforated dish. These were later replaced with solid metal parabolic reflectors. I don't know the Mk/Mod of the solid dish.

****

Here is an anecdote about the Mk 25 radars. I was Director Officer in our Mk 37 and on one cruise off Vietnam the radar stopped working. The Navy immediately flew in a technician from Stateside to repair it. While he was working on our unit the guys in the director chatted with him and he told us a bit about the Mk 25.

Each radar transmitter had two large (about 12 inches tall) vacuum tubes, and these were the parts that failed most often. The technician carried a black case with two new tubes in it. He said they cost about $35,000 each (1970s dollars) and each director was allotted only two (installed) with no spares. He said the Navy had bought a stock of these tubes quite a few years earlier, and they were supposed to last the life of the Mk 25s fleet wide. But the war used them up pretty quickly. Consequently there were very few in stock so when a ship needed a new one a technician brought new tubes from the States.

Why didn't they have more tubes in stock? After the last order was filed the manufacturer destroyed the production line and used the space for something else. So if the Navy wanted more tubes it had to buy a new factory to make a relatively small number of parts. This raised the price of a few dollar vacuum tube to many tens of thousands of dollars each.

It turned out the part that failed was a simple TO-5 transistor that cost a few dollars. The humid salt atmosphere had corroded one of the three leads. It was gold plated over copper wire, and a tiny fault in the plating allowed humidity to get to the copper inside the plating and corrode it away. Only the thin tubular plating remained intact to make the circuit and support the part, and eventually vibrations broke it.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:53 am 
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Phil,
Interesting historical story on the Mk. 25. Very similar - when I served in STODDARD, my ship's office was 1/2 level below the main deck and 1/2 level above the mess decks (FLETCHER class DD) on the stbd side. A narrow passageway separated our space (hull side) from a storage locker facing it (inside). This was a metal lattice bulkhead with a metal frame door which was locked. It was a storage space for OC division as well as the SONAR gang. They stored spare parts. I recall seeing two of the wooden crates with a single vacuum tube in each one. They were roughly 8"x8"x24" tall. The tube was a bulb type with a round top end wider than the base end. My buddy in Boise, ID who was an SO3 called these Klystron tubes. I think a couple years back we were discussing the lower SONAR room in the bow of the ship (located above where the SONAR dome below the hull is located) and he mentioned that was the location of the elec. gear that these tubes were associated with. Of course, that space I never even had any knowledge about until I started working on the model.

This hobby can and does provide opportunities all the time to learn something that you never knew about - one of the reasons I enjoy it so much!!

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:50 am 
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Ah, Klystron Tubes, I remember the name but never saw one. Here is a link to a brief explanation of these devices;

https://www.electrical4u.com/klystron-t ... lications/

A development of the "cavity magnetron" which allowed the development of microwave radar. The Klystron tube is a microwave amplifier. I remember historical discussion of early British airborne Radar they dubbed the "Klystron Ray".

Back to printing... I was pleased with the airy aspect of the MK 4 units I printed for Alaska and replaced the existing ones. Missouri (both 1:192) has the MK 25 units so I have not replaced those. Last night I printed two of the 5" twin mounts in 1:120 but haven't fetched them as yet. 1:120 is a real resin hog compared to 1;192. On the larger platen I was bale to print two plus the separate barrel assemblies. I split the barrels off as separate files, this allowed me to angle the mounts at 15 deg and the barrels at 45 deg which should be more optimal.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:17 pm 
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As part of an ongoing project, I printed the twin mount in 1:120. Strangely both barrel assemblies and one mount came out almost perfect. The second mount, sitting next to the other on the platen was just a blob stuck to the FEP.

Attachment:
Keyboard security.jpg
Keyboard security.jpg [ 266.04 KiB | Viewed 1440 times ]


In these days of cyber security concerns one cannot overlook any form of keyboard security. In the raw and still having some of that irritating resin dust which comes from minor cleanup of the object. Exaggerated in a sub arctic climate, the indoor humidity currently at 2%.

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:15 pm 
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Location: Bretagne, France
Fliger747 wrote:
The second mount, sitting next to the other on the platen was just a blob stuck to the FEP.

Tom


It happens sometimes, I have to check that the base of the supports is at zero on Chitubox. The bottom surface of the supports must be green. Sometimes Chitubox plays tricks on me, some bugs.

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•Battleship Bretagne 3D: https://vu.fr/FvCY
•SS Delphine 3D: https://vu.fr/NeuO
•SS Nomadic 3D: https://vu.fr/tAyL
•USS Nokomis 3D: https://vu.fr/kntC
•USS Pamanset 3D: https://vu.fr/jXGQ


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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:32 pm 
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Location: Severna Park MD USA
I think I found my sweet-spot in 3D printing and I've been trying to get everything I need printed before it fades away.
So far I'm finding a lot of "light" supports are working for me better than fewer larger supports, especially on edges and corners. I think they release from the FEP easier with each lift.


Attachments:
File comment: Articulated, studded, anchor chain
con20220406c.jpg
con20220406c.jpg [ 291.21 KiB | Viewed 1433 times ]
File comment: Chain and shackle printed all-in-one attached to anchor printed a while back
con20220408g.jpg
con20220408g.jpg [ 362.04 KiB | Viewed 1433 times ]
File comment: New, more detailed panels for the skylight. They'll be hinged to access the models power on/off switch underneath
con20220407b.jpg
con20220407b.jpg [ 201.97 KiB | Viewed 1433 times ]
File comment: A few more figures printed "as acquired" but with many light supports instead of medium supports - all printed perfectly where-as several from the first batch failed out-right or partially.
Even Stella the cat's "thumbs" printed on her paws.

con20220408a.jpg
con20220408a.jpg [ 225.69 KiB | Viewed 1433 times ]

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~>Constellation 1856

~>3D Modeled Naval Guns 1850s~1870s
~>My Gallery
~>My Web Site
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 Post subject: Re: 3D printing
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:59 pm 
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Surprised with all that black powder about that ships didn't disappear with a loud boom and a pall of black smoke with more frequency. Nice thing about the small supports on the chain is it often zips right off the supports!


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