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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:21 pm
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Location: chun an city chung nam Korea
Hi norbert!
It's nice shipyard.I have not my workshop.
Song.

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:46 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am
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Location: Brasil
thank's Song
well i build for several years in one part ofthe house who is not apropriated to do ship modelling.
now finally about years in the Limbo i can feel happy... :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:46 pm 
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Location: Brasil
tms wrote:
Hi Norberto, is nice to have your own modeling space there. Nice approach with turrets. I understand that the frame supports inside are located almost every 50 mm.What is your experience with the styrene sheet behavior after some months exposure in summer temperatures? No deformations?

Cheers,
Christos


Christos my apologies by the delayed answer for you. Sorry i really don't see in time.
well about styrene deformations i have not experienced in the construction but in one determined part i
could see a little deformation yes and i thinking about use a harder part in some superestructure parts made from ABS who in my point o f view is more harder than styrene. i am talking about decks who suffer with the weight above these decks.
i think ABS bring stability in some parts who is necessary to have. in all rest of the building is not problem
in true i use PSAI(High Temperature Poly Styrene) who is a bit different from normal styrene, PSAI have rubber in your own composition and is indicated to sun or high temperatures. Is wise to leave the model in a shelter to prevent any thing. and reinforce the internal construction helps you own.
Regards thanks for ask :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:05 am
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Location: Greece
Thanks for the reply. ABS will need CA glue all over?


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:17 am 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Plastics have relatively large coefficients of thermal expansion - about twice as large as aluminum, and several times as large as wood. When plastics get warm they expand quite a bit. For example, the flight deck of an aircraft carrier at 1:72 scale will be several meters long. Moving it from room temperature (25C) to outdoors in direct sunlight will result in the deck heating to 50-60C. If the deck is plastic it will increase in length 4-5 mm. However, if the hull is in water it will not heat up as much and will expand a lot less, especially if parts are made of wood. The resulting stresses will be quite great and something will break.

I speak from experience. I used Plexiglass (acrylic) for framing in a fiberglass hull (1:96 Cleveland class, about 2 meters long), with epoxy to hold the frames in the hull. I filled in gaps in the hull with Bondo, working out doors, and allowed it to cure in the sun. The Plexiglas frames expanded, ripped out the epoxy, and popped out of the hull. Fortunately, it was fairly easy to repair.

There are other accounts on the forum of large plastic sheets warping in the sun.

Ignore the laws of physics and you will be sorry!

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:33 am 
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Moreover styrene sheet for large constuctions with relatively small thickness is even more unstable. I was wondering what material could be put inside the styrene sheet as a doubler to add strength against deformations. I would like to build a hull plated by styrene due to lack of space in the house making use of GRP or epoxies forbidden.


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:09 am 
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I also have mixed feelings about styrene, but I talked to Markus van Beek who built his RC Bismarck from styrene in the 1990s and he has not experienced problems with it. He said that all compartments have to be open for circulation of the air. No cloesed spaces.

However I built a few studies of command posts using styrene and these parts show detoriating joints ... maybe I was not working properly enough using right angles for the joints etc.

:wave_1:

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am
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Location: Brasil
yes all comments are right here.
about ventilation spaces i always build my structures as the hollow way.
and always reinforcing my structures with internal arms etc..
thanks for the post my friends :wave_1: knees etc...
p.s. i am in vacances and working in the SKC-34 casemates alternating
with my shipyard works(bench building and home works too) :cool_2:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:22 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:12 pm
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Location: campbell river.b.c canada
hi norbreto,i have models that are now 10 years old built with styrene and balsa or bass wood skinned with styrene and have had no problems with them falling apart.mind you i do not subject them to freezing cold or boiling hot tempatures.nothing will withstand that over time.


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:31 pm 
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Location: Guerneville,CA
Your model and model making skills are unbelievable!

Question.
What can I glue styrene to wood with?

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:17 am 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Luky,

I have used epoxy to bond styrene to wood. Rough the inside surface of the styrene with coarse sand paper. Wash off the dust to get a clean surface. Spread the epoxy in a thin layer over the surface, being careful to not trap air bubbles. Cover the wood with another thin coating of epoxy. The idea is to work the glue into the scratches and wood grain to maximize contact surface area. Clamp the pieces and allow the epoxy to set.

The trick to bonding styrene to styrene is to not use a glue. Instead, use a styrene solvent like MEK (methyl-ethyl ketone). Solvents do not glue the pieces together - they melt the styrene and the two pieces flow together. When the solvent evaporates there is no joint. The two pieces have become one. There is no joint to deteriorate or break as there is with a glue.

MEK also has the great virtue that it doesn't craze the exposed surface of the styrene - it evaporates immediately without leaving a mark. It hangs around long enough to melt the plastic only where it is trapped between the pieces (or under tape). You can apply MEK with a paint brush, running the brush along the joint. It will flow between the styrene pieces by capillary action, ensuring that the entire contacting surfaces are fused.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 am 
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Location: Liverpool
My apologies Norberto for drifting slightly away from the main thread ,Your superb build but I would like if I may add to the above observations and very interesting comments. I have had a long a varied relationship with styrene and written many articles on that very subject. Styrene is one of the most versatile, malleable and easy to work materials I have encountered, but and there is always a but I have learned from experience where its limitations are. Styrene added as an additional layer onto a more stable material is acceptable if the styrene sheet can be reduced into sections. I have experienced no problems with that approach even over large areas. The problems occur when the primary surface over large areas is styrene. Temperature changes or direct sun light does alter the stability of the material considerably. I use amalgams of styrene with litho plate, timber and experienced no problems. The choice of adhesives for bonding different material to styrene is critical but in small areas such as turrets and superstructures the thermal differences are minimal , I suspect the long term durability and stability is still an open question. I have visited a number of museum conservationist departments and few have a good word for that material simply because the jury is out on its long term viability. I have had a model in one museum for over 25 years, and yes it is a controlled environment but under certain conditions styrene will change and in so doing become more brittle. Even now there is little in the way of accurate information of the effects long term on modern adhesives thus no positive results or conclusions can be drawn. In a very un scientific way I just keep my fingers crossed and monitor the situation.
Dave Wooley
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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:07 pm 
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russclark wrote:
hi norbreto,i have models that are now 10 years old built with styrene and balsa or bass wood skinned with styrene and have had no problems with them falling apart.mind you i do not subject them to freezing cold or boiling hot tempatures.nothing will withstand that over time.

hello Russ
yes my KGv is from styrene too(superestructure).
i have no problem with this type of polymer
thanks for posting :thumbs_up_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:10 pm 
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Luky wrote:
Your model and model making skills are unbelievable!

Question.
What can I glue styrene to wood with?


thank you luky
i use Weldene and Bondene from Plastruct(USA)
for me is one of the best styrene glue i know.
Bondene evaporates fast but is excelent Weldene bond more slow but is
excellent to glue too :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Dave Wooley wrote:
My apologies Norberto for drifting slightly away from the main thread ,Your superb build but I would like if I may add to the above observations and very interesting comments. I have had a long a varied relationship with styrene and written many articles on that very subject. Styrene is one of the most versatile, malleable and easy to work materials I have encountered, but and there is always a but I have learned from experience where its limitations are. Styrene added as an additional layer onto a more stable material is acceptable if the styrene sheet can be reduced into sections. I have experienced no problems with that approach even over large areas. The problems occur when the primary surface over large areas is styrene. Temperature changes or direct sun light does alter the stability of the material considerably. I use amalgams of styrene with litho plate, timber and experienced no problems. The choice of adhesives for bonding different material to styrene is critical but in small areas such as turrets and superstructures the thermal differences are minimal , I suspect the long term durability and stability is still an open question. I have visited a number of museum conservationist departments and few have a good word for that material simply because the jury is out on its long term viability. I have had a model in one museum for over 25 years, and yes it is a controlled environment but under certain conditions styrene will change and in so doing become more brittle. Even now there is little in the way of accurate information of the effects long term on modern adhesives thus no positive results or conclusions can be drawn. In a very un scientific way I just keep my fingers crossed and monitor the situation.
Dave Wooley
.

i agree you Dave
large areas from styrene could be a problem.
in true i would like to use metal to do my models. but with no special tools like lathe or milling machine
the task can be difficult. but is wonderfull. styrene is more easy to work, repair and glue in my opinion.
is my prefered material. metal is no doubt durable more than styrene in some aspects. the use of litho is
an interesting way you show me Dave. i have seen many litho uses here as Admiral´s model buildings
well living and learning with my friends here too.
Thanks for post :smallsmile: :wave_1: :wave_1: :smallsmile:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:30 am
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Location: The Mediterranean sea
From my own experience I used styrene 25 years ago for shipbuilding and it hasn't deteriorated at all, when it's covered with paint it's greatly protected and such model could stand several thousand years in an egyptian tomb. In the meantime I've seen electric device made of something looking like styrene (white plastic) reduced into powder over 5 to 10 years. The styrene sheet we're using is definitely of much better quality and will survive us all.


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:47 am 
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Location: Brasil
Hi all friends
i am posting some news of the guns and admirals tower painting work(primering).
:thumbs_up_1:


Attachments:
File comment: work on the casemates
SAM_0151.jpg
SAM_0151.jpg [ 96.52 KiB | Viewed 771 times ]
File comment: underside reinforcements
SAM_0153.jpg
SAM_0153.jpg [ 112.54 KiB | Viewed 771 times ]
File comment: two stations
SAM_0156.jpg
SAM_0156.jpg [ 128.5 KiB | Viewed 771 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am
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Location: Brasil
and the works continue :heh:


Attachments:
File comment: my own bench being made by myself
SAM_0159.jpg
SAM_0159.jpg [ 118.01 KiB | Viewed 773 times ]
SAM_0161.jpg
SAM_0161.jpg [ 98.85 KiB | Viewed 773 times ]
SAM_0169.jpg
SAM_0169.jpg [ 114.17 KiB | Viewed 773 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am
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:cool_2:


Attachments:
SAM_0170.jpg
SAM_0170.jpg [ 107.52 KiB | Viewed 775 times ]
SAM_0172.jpg
SAM_0172.jpg [ 160.17 KiB | Viewed 775 times ]
File comment: four stations
SAM_0173.jpg
SAM_0173.jpg [ 85.04 KiB | Viewed 775 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am
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Location: Brasil
:cool_2:


Attachments:
File comment: tower before primer job
SAM_0195.jpg
SAM_0195.jpg [ 99.93 KiB | Viewed 775 times ]
File comment: masking work
SAM_0206.jpg
SAM_0206.jpg [ 132.56 KiB | Viewed 775 times ]
SAM_0209.jpg
SAM_0209.jpg [ 118.72 KiB | Viewed 775 times ]
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