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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:00 am 
beautiful..
Norberto your model is museum standard and so far a glowing tribute to the ship and everything to do with her ..


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:48 am 
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Noberto my friend this is amazing workmanship . Can you show some more close in pictures , truly of a very high standard . :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :woo_hoo:
Dave Wooley


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:20 am 
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Location: Silverdale, Wa
Norberto,
Absolutely beautiful work! The results of your slow, steady progress have been well worth the wait! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :good_job: :worship_1:

John :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:18 am
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Location: Brasil
Thank you all for the kind words.
this weekend i primer the metal parts of this bridge.
i give another paint treatment to metal before primering all
But the home works takes me all time sunday so unfortunately i can't primer the complete bridge.
just work saturday. so stay for next week. Dave i pretend purchase a new camera, my older is bad
thanks by the comments guys :smallsmile: :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:21 am 
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Location: chun an city chung nam Korea
Hi Nobert!
It's really good !
Your Bismarck is the best of best.
I am awaiting your next post.
Song.

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:17 am 
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Song Jung Gun wrote:
Hi Nobert!
It's really good !
Your Bismarck is the best of best.
I am awaiting your next post.
Song.


thank you my friend SONG by your nice support
i trying but have Bismarck models better i can do.
in true this is not important for me
what i think be important
is ship modelling and fun. :cool_2: :wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:33 am 
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Salut Norberto

I've found a site with beatiful close up pics of Bismarck
may be you'll find something interesting

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=11141


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:59 am 
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setori wrote:
Salut Norberto

I've found a site with beatiful close up pics of Bismarck
may be you'll find something interesting

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=11141


oui Setori
very interesting always
and be apreciated from you
best all
Norberto :wave_1: :thumbs_up_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:57 am 
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Posts: 74
Hi Norberto. Your build of Bismarck is amazing. Your precise approach to every cut, every part, piece and sub-assembly is at the same time awe-inspiring and intimidating. Also a bit frustrating for those of us who lack the time to devote to such meticulous work. Thank you for sharing so many photos of the progress!

I'm trying to finish my 1:144 scratch-built Bismarck. It's nowhere near as detailed as yours, because it's an RC combat model (fires steel balls in battles with other warships). However, I've tried my best to make the basic structures as historically accurate as I can. For this, I have relied primarily on Hans Gally's drawings (which I recognize in some of your photos), photos from the Bundesarchives, films, undersea photos and video of the wreck, John Asmussen's fine website and books, Anatomy of a ship, builder's threads such as this one, the shipyard model at Blohm & Voss, and - where appropriate, documentation of Tirpitz. I've been working on this model, off and on, since 2003. But now I'm getting close to completion, as far as launching it at the local RC boat lake is concerned.

I've spent the past two days downloading all of the photos of your Bismarck build, including those that you posted on Modelismo na Net. I've arranged all of the photos in categories, since by its nature, the build thread is linear, meaning that you post photos of what you happen to have been working on at that time, but you often work on several unrelated sub-assemblies at the same time.

(For those reading this who may be new to scale warship modeling, an accurate build - especially one as complicated as a German battleship - will take years to accomplish. For example, this build thread started in July of 2009, and the project's not finished. This may seem like a long time, but not when you consider how complex the Bismarck was. In addition to multiple redundant fittings and equipment, the Germans never made a simple rectangular structure when they could make it asymmetrical, curved or angular. It takes multiple views to get a clear idea of how a particular sub-assembly or individual structure actually looked. Added to the fact that Bismarck lived only a week after committing to battle for the first time, that makes it extremely difficult to know if the particular piece you're working on is, in fact, accurately scaled and drawn. If it isn't, then successive parts and pieces you build that relate to that piece, or fit into that piece, will be wrong as well. Each part of an accurate scale model of Bismarck requires research from several sources, prior to building and installing it on the model. Some models, such as Josef Kaiser's 1:100 Bismarck, have taken well over 20 years to build, and are still undergoing modifications.)

Image
Josef Kaiser's 1:100 Bismarck

Here's my current problem:

The aircraft catapult has an inclined ramp on either side of it, sloping down to the front of the funnel hangars leading forward, and sloping aft to the front of the main hangar doors. This makes perfect sense, since the railings the Arado was launched on had to rise above the deck. But because the deck must therefore slope up to the catapult rails on both the aft and forward sides, and because the deck camber arcs from beam end to beam end, it follows that the deck must at some point begin to angle away from the catapult on the beam ends, at the same time that it curves due to camber, and at the same time sloping down to meet the hangar doors. I have no clue how to build this. Do you have any ideas?

It's supposed to look like this, I believe (from Gally's drawings. I added red lines to accent the point):

Image

I can also see it in the undersea photos of the wreck (I added red lines to accent the point):

Image

Image

You can also see it clearly in this shot taken from above:

Image

Finally, you can see a bit of the slope from the funnel hangars to the catapult here, in a Tirpitz photo I was lucky enough to find on eBay:

Image

But, I have no plans that clearly show how to build this compound curving, angular structure. Do you? (or does anyone?)

Thanks,

Rob


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:52 am 
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Location: Brasil
Hi Rob i thank you by your nice words about my work.
Really you talk about many problems we have to built a modelship
i have too, i frequently have to review my books, drawings all time i
stop to dedicate some time of my build. sometimes we don't have the
necessary explanations for some drawing or picture of real Bismarck.
it's normal for us ship modelmakers
is difficult to obtain infos about Bismarck for me too.
the drawings i have is in german and i don't speak german, so when i translate some word or
text sometimes i can't understand what saying.
so i use my time analysing drawings and pictures of Bismarck.
i will need some years to complete my model - i just work in weekends
so the time is short considering i am married and you know...
In this forum have some excellent Bismarck builders too as
Bernd and Kiwi( sorry if i forgot somebody).
Bernd for example have so much infos about Bismarck more than me(in true i have few infos, considering another modellers).
I'm trying to do the better model i can do considering my habilities. i thank you by follow my work.
About The aircraft catapult well i don't stop to analyse it and no build anything about that.
i really don't know why deck is inclined - maibe to drain water from the hidraulic compartments above the catapult? who know something about the inclined deck in the area? please help us.
i will search abou some drawing and later i P.M. you
thanks and regards Rob


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Interesting, note the longitudal edge/buckle in the access hatches on either side of the catapult... never noticed that! :thumbs_up_1:

This makes me belive that each 'ramp' needs to get separated into at least three sections on a model.


Hmmm ...


Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Attachment:
plataforma de popa.jpg
plataforma de popa.jpg [ 139.86 KiB | Viewed 2768 times ]
Middle hangar with their Rails :cool_2:


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Here are two more drawings that illustrate what I'm trying to build. There seem to be two sets of angles in the decks, related to the catapult. The first set of angles are those that slope up, away from the hangars, until they meet the catapult, as can be seen in the profile view in the Hans Gally drawings:

Image


The second set of angles can be seen in the Gally drawings, and in the undersea wreck photos, in the section view:

Image

So, from what I can tell, the decks aft of the Bismarck funnel, and forward of the main hangar, are not flat at all, but angled up to the catapult, and the beam ends of the deck angle down and away from the horizontal railings at the same time. Added to all of this is the deck camber for water drainage, and you have an incredibly complicated build.

Or am I seeing this wrongly?

Rob


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Capitão Norbert wrote:
Attachment:
plataforma de popa.jpg
Middle hangar with their Rails :cool_2:


Wonderful! You can see the railings coming from the main hangar to the catapult in this drawing, and the same type of railings coming from the funnel hangars in the photograph I shared from Tirpitz. We're getting closer to solving this!

Rob


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:06 am 
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Rob Wood wrote:
Or am I seeing this wrongly?


No, you seem to see it correct.

As mentioned above, I would do either side of the catapult in three pieces. The largest should be the centre one, #1 in my hastily done drawing (with exaggerated angles for clarification). The two smaller ones, with the more compound curve, #2 in my drawing, shouldn't be that difficult to build. I would simply make a template out of paper, maybe a square or rectangular piece with one corner drawn out of alignment in order to 'reach' the upper edge of the catapult level.

I think the most difficult thing is to add the deck camber. But would it be noticable at your scale? How much would it be? Half-a-millimeter per inch? Maybe it was too complicated for them too, so they left it out? :big_grin:

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


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sloped_decks-catapult.jpg
sloped_decks-catapult.jpg [ 11.83 KiB | Viewed 2720 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:23 pm 
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Not sure if this was mentioned, or if anything would be that useful, lots of videos of the Bismarck at the bottom of the Atlantic. Looks like they were only posted around August 2012.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UClVlyPq ... eos?view=0


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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:27 am 
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Location: Vlaardingen, The Netherlands
Olaf Held wrote:
Rob Wood wrote:
Or am I seeing this wrongly?


No, you seem to see it correct.

As mentioned above, I would do either side of the catapult in three pieces. The largest should be the centre one, #1 in my hastily done drawing (with exaggerated angles for clarification). The two smaller ones, with the more compound curve, #2 in my drawing, shouldn't be that difficult to build. I would simply make a template out of paper, maybe a square or rectangular piece with one corner drawn out of alignment in order to 'reach' the upper edge of the catapult level.

I think the most difficult thing is to add the deck camber. But would it be noticable at your scale? How much would it be? Half-a-millimeter per inch? Maybe it was too complicated for them too, so they left it out? :big_grin:

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!


May I suggest making a mold of this piece of deck?
Place the mold and then add the deck planking and you have the correct shape.
It also seems like there's no radius in the angled parts which only makes things easier.

Greetings Josse

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:58 pm 
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LOL, (jokingly) This is why I am building a ship that they never constructed because with the lack of information about the ship and it just having a basic design I can build it and detail it and if I am wrong a tiny bit, no one knows the better. I would have to be in gross error to be wrong, like using a japanese catapult on my german cruiser, or having the gun turrets way out of place or measurement. Anyway I am having to compare plans to many known German ships to create a logical porthole pattern for the M class, as they didn't plan for these in the line drawings. I have been looking at placement of the portholes on Graph Spee, Prinz Eugan, and a Z plan mine layer that did have them on the plans with the compartment layout. I wish You skill and luck with the sloping deck delima, and yes these were seriously complex details on the real ships, so Kudo's to anyone who spends years and money to craft one as a work of art.

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:58 am 
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Haratio Fales wrote:
LOL, (jokingly) This is why I am building a ship that they never constructed because with the lack of information about the ship and it just having a basic design I can build it and detail it and if I am wrong a tiny bit, no one knows the better. I would have to be in gross error to be wrong, like using a japanese catapult on my german cruiser, or having the gun turrets way out of place or measurement. Anyway I am having to compare plans to many known German ships to create a logical porthole pattern for the M class, as they didn't plan for these in the line drawings. I have been looking at placement of the portholes on Graph Spee, Prinz Eugan, and a Z plan mine layer that did have them on the plans with the compartment layout. I wish You skill and luck with the sloping deck delima, and yes these were seriously complex details on the real ships, so Kudo's to anyone who spends years and money to craft one as a work of art.


I'd say see if you can find a logic and German way to get all needed spaces inside the hull, like crew cabins, ammo stores and all other rooms.
Then think what rooms would require a porthole and then make the porthole plan.

Perhaps they decided that portholes are useless in wartime as they make the ship an easy prey for subs and other enemies, causing the crew to use the lighting anyways.
Besides, electricity can well be produced by having the prop shafts turn, which they will do pretty much all the time when the ship is at sea.

Greetings Josse

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 Post subject: Re: Bismarck 1/100
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:19 am 
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Quote:
Perhaps they decided that portholes are useless in wartime as they make the ship an easy prey for subs and other enemies, causing the crew to use the lighting anyways.


Warships have very strict lighting procedures (then and now). A porthole always has a deadlight for closing off. The Japanese did bolt most of their portholes shut towards the end of a war to avoid the ship being lost to a porthole left open by the crew

Quote:
Besides, electricity can well be produced by having the prop shafts turn, which they will do pretty much all the time when the ship is at sea.


Except that you need a frequency converter, something ships even nowadays usually do not have.

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