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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:12 pm 
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Thought I'd take some time out and start a thread here about my newest scratchbuilding project for this summer: The HMS HABBAKUK pykrete aircraft carrier in 1/700 scale. But first, perhaps I should provide a bit of a "history lesson" of sorts and present references so everyone knows what I'm talking about. ;)

Articles about HMS Habbakuk, Pykrete, and the history of the project.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete
http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7 ... island.php
http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sh ... bakkuk.htm
http://www.thewarillustrated.info/230/s ... bbakuk.asp
http://www.goodeveca.net/CFGoodeve/habakkuk.html

Here's some pictures I saved from various sites around the Net that give interpretations of what the ship may have looked like:
* Pics from a History Channel program on Secret Weapons:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... ct/123.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... t/ice1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... rterte.jpg

* Artist concept sketches:
Image
Image
Image

* Detailed general arrangement plans for Habbakuk:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... /hab13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... -plans.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... scan-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... an0001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... an0002.jpg


Last edited by EJM on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:38 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:28 pm 
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Continuing with the "history lesson"........;)

Here's some pics of the prototype "houseboat" under construction which was used to test materials and construction techniques.
* Patricia Lake near Alberta, Canada where the prototype was built:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... hab25a.png
* Construction of the prototype "houseboat".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... planks.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... hab28b.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... 702434.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... 702433.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... bukuk2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... ration.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... hab31a.png

Image

* Remnants of the Habbakuk prototype underwater in Patricia Lake:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... gley_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... gley_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... /hab39.png


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:21 pm 
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Ok, history lesson done. Now I'll talk about my build. The one main thing which will be scratchbuilt is the main hull. This will be built by a friend who will make it out of wood - probably lightweight cedar. A lot of additional parts like guns, superstructure, aircraft, etc. will be robbed from 1/700 kits that I'll buy.
As for a paint scheme to use, I'm possibly thinking of either MS-3 or MS-23. I'm not sure which yet.
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_3.htm
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_23.htm
Although some sort of camo measure might be nice, my eyesight isn't that good right now for something like that.

And although the Habbakuk is a British design/ship, I have opted to build instead an American version since I do not have any "British naval model spare parts" at home to build the ship as a British ship, nor do a lot of aftermarket places have the accessories I need for a British version. The real Habbakuk if built probably would have carried this type of gun:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_45-45_mk1.htm
........but since there's none around in 1/700 scale, I will instead use 5"/38 cal. for my American version. According to what sources I've read, Habbakuk would have had 40 dual barreled 4.5" turrets plus numerous smaller anti-aircraft weapons. I've got 26 5"/38 cal. turrets right now and I just need a few more. I'm using these kits for some spare parts: (More kits to be bought later.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02078.jpg

I started planning today how I was going to have things laid out and built. I made a "rough" 1/700th pencil sketch of the overhead outline of the ship and then planned where I was going to put guns and so forth. In 1/700 scale, the model I'm building is approximately 34" long x 5 1/2" wide.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02094.jpg
Also added for "scale" next to the pencil outline is a 1/700 Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier, a Iowa battleship hull, and a USS Hancock CV-19 WWII carrier hull, to compare just how big the Habbakuk would have been compared to other Navy ships. :big_eyes:

In this pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02096.jpg
.........you can see where I used 1/700 F-18's to show how wide the Habbakuk would have been. You can park 8 across!
For 5" gun placement, If the Habbakuk was originally planned with 40 turrets, then I calculated approx. one turret every 1 1/4" or 1 1/2". 20 per side. If I wanted, I could add 40mm guns between each 5" turret as indicated on the left side of that pic. Or I'm thinking of having 40mm, 5" turret, 20 cal. gun, then 5" turret, 40mm, 5" turret, 20 cal. gun, 5" turret, 40mm, etc., etc., etc. as shown on the right side of that pic. I'm not sure which armament plan I'll go with yet. Another thing that I'll have to be scrachbuild is all the sponsons and balconies for all the guns.


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:06 am 
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Excellent and worthy project--and probably the first scale model I have ever seen.!!

:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:48 am 
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EJM wrote:
Ok, history lesson done. Now I'll talk about my build. The one main thing which will be scratchbuilt is the main hull. This will be built by a friend who will make it out of wood - probably lightweight cedar. A lot of additional parts like guns, superstructure, aircraft, etc. will be robbed from 1/700 kits that I'll buy.
As for a paint scheme to use, I'm possibly thinking of either MS-3 or MS-23. I'm not sure which yet.
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_3.htm
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/measure_23.htm
Although some sort of camo measure might be nice, my eyesight isn't that good right now for something like that.

And although the Habbakuk is a British design/ship, I have opted to build instead an American version since I do not have any "British naval model spare parts" at home to build the ship as a British ship, nor do a lot of aftermarket places have the accessories I need for a British version. The real Habbakuk if built probably would have carried this type of gun:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_45-45_mk1.htm
........but since there's none around in 1/700 scale, I will instead use 5"/38 cal. for my American version. According to what sources I've read, Habbakuk would have had 40 dual barreled 4.5" turrets plus numerous smaller anti-aircraft weapons. I've got 26 5"/38 cal. turrets right now and I just need a few more. I'm using these kits for some spare parts:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02078.jpg

I started planning today how I was going to have things laid out and built. I made a "rough" 1/700th pencil sketch of the overhead outline of the ship and then planned where I was going to put guns and so forth. In 1/700 scale, the model I'm building is approximately 34" long x 5 1/2" wide.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02094.jpg
Also added for "scale" next to the pencil outline is a 1/700 Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier, a Iowa battleship hull, and a USS Hancock CV-19 WWII carrier hull, to compare just how big the Habbakuk would have been compared to other Navy ships. :big_eyes:

In this pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02096.jpg
.........you can see where I used 1/700 F-18's to show how wide the Habbakuk would have been. You can park 8 across!
For 5" gun placement, If the Habbakuk was originally planned with 40 turrets, then I calculated approx. one turret every 1 1/4" or 1 1/2". 20 per side. If I wanted, I could add 40mm guns between each 5" turret as indicated on the left side of that pic. Or I'm thinking of having 40mm, 5" turret, 20 cal. gun, then 5" turret, 40mm, 5" turret, 20 cal. gun, 5" turret, 40mm, etc., etc., etc. as shown on the right side of that pic. I'm not sure which armament plan I'll go with yet. Another thing that I'll have to be scrachbuild is all the sponsons and balconies for all the guns.

If my memory serves me correct there was an in depth article on the Habbakuk project in "Warship , it's just remembering which edition? Great idea for a model best of luck with the project.
Dave Wooley :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Quote:
If my memory serves me correct there was an in depth article on the Habbakuk project in "Warship , it's just remembering which edition?


If anybody has that issue/article, I would very much like to have a copy. :)
I've also read on the FSM forums that someone mentioned there was a Habbakuk model at the 2000 IPMS Dallas Nats? I've tried searching around the Net for pics, but cannot find anything. :(

Here's one problem that I need help with:
My friend who is making the main hull out of wood, thinks that a full hull model should be shown. I tend to disagree as there really isn't that much detail below the waterline. The only "odd feature" below the waterline and running the circumfrence of the ship is about 2 dozen evenly spaced turboelectric propulsion pods as shown in the middle of this pic here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... /hab13.jpg
Another sample pic showing the "pods" along the side of the hull:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... an0002.jpg

If a full hull is done, then I need to find some way to scratchbuild 2 dozen propulsion pods and they all need to be the same. I'm not even sure how I'd scratchbuild that many and I don't have a ton of model spare parts at home to make something like that. Plus, I'm not familiar with casting parts in resin and have no experience working with casting resin.
Would doing the ship as a waterline model be better?


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:31 am 
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I vote for waterline - she'll be a big beastie as it is, really.

If I recall, the British concept was to use the Habakuk as a full blown airbase, so you might also wish to consider something like B-25's on the massive monster of a deck. If we're going a little further outside our outside the box thinking here, her sides likely might have had a slope to them, so you Could in theory terrace all your 5" positions a step below the flight area, and space them more evenly around the hull to provide better coverage.

It's not as if we'd have to worry about stripped down B-25B's for the flight off THIS deck... you could have them loaded for bear without much if any problem what so ever.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:22 pm 
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After going to a (Almost empty. :( ) model club meeting today at a local hobby store and talking with a few people, I think I've changed my mind and will be building the Habbakuk as a waterline model. At least this will cut down on the weight vs. if I were to do a full hull which would be a bit heavier. ;)
Doing waterline will also save me the trouble of having to make all those turboelectric propulsion pods like I described earlier. Instead, I'll make just one pod in a little larger scale and place that near the Habbakuk model to showcase what sort of propulsion system this ship would have had.
Also, I'm in the design and planning stage to make a cross-section cutaway of this ship. :cool_2: I'm planning to make a 1/700 cross-section cutaway similar to what this diagram shows:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... rlord2.jpg
The cross-section won't be very big. Try thinking of it as like a really thick slice of toast only 2-4 inches thick, and showing the interior hangars, crew spaces, etc., etc., etc.


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Just a few more notes and pics to share. ;) Don't worry. There will be construction pics to show soon. I'll be starting on the bridge island superstructure first this week while I wait for my friend to make the wood hull. So now, here's some other plans I've done. If anybody has any comments or questions, then just ask. ;)

Began doing more armament position planning, pencil sketches, and measurements for the ship today.
* Another overhead full view from stem to stern:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02103.jpg
* Pencil measurement for one of the aircraft elevators. One elevator will be near the bow, and another will be near the rear.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02109.jpg
* Pencil measurements showing placement of 5" guns, 40mm guns, etc. I've finally decided only to have 10 5" turrets per side, and then one 40mm turret between the 5" emplacements, and then possibly a small 20mm gun balcony (2-3 guns per balcony) on either side of the 40mm emplacement. If I put any more armament along the sides, then the sides will be way overcrowded.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02100.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02101.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02102.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02107.jpg
* Two pics showing the scale of Habbakuk compared to two WWII aircraft carrier decks, side by side, as well as end to end. :big_eyes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02105.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02106.jpg


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:08 pm 
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Time for a construction pic update. ;)

Last two days, I've been working on the bridge superstructure area while a friend works on building the main hull for me. What is shown below is some sample pics of what the superstructure configuration may look like. It's still a work in progress and I'm not quite done yet. Since a Habbakuk type superstructure would be a bit larger than that found on a regular WWII aircraft carrier as shown in this example pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... ecrete.jpg
.........I decided to "raise" as well as "add more" superstructure parts/area by robbing extra superstructure parts from a 1/700 USS Boxer amphib ship, a USS Alabama BB kit, a USS Hancock WWII carrier kit, and a USS Saratoga WWII carrier kit. There's still quite a bit of work to do yet. With a little luck, I'll be done with the superstructure at the end of July.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02115.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02116.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02117.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02118.jpg

Also went to the hobby store today and bought supplies for doing that cutaway cross section like I mentioned earlier. ;) It's possible I may start that next after the superstructure is done.
I'm also having trouble on figuring what to paint this ship? Because I have very bad eyesight, trying to use an airbrush is completely out. Therefore, I'll probably spray can paint the main hull, then brush paint all the smaller parts and areas. Problem is, When I see a good color of spray can paint, it doesn't have a corresponding smaller bottle of the same color, and vice versa. :( Anybody got any suggestions? Or should I just paint the whole damn thing white since it was designed to be stationed in northern waters/areas?


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:31 pm 
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For colour ideas, I would follow what other large USN ships (you're building her, despite the thread title, as an USN vessel, right?) of the time wore. Most carriers were in MS21 or 22, and some of the light carriers wore MS14.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Timmy: After further studying of some Testor and Tamiya catalogs that I have, the only options that seem viable to me are:

Testor:
FS36440 Flat Gull Gray - Comes in a spray can and a small bottle.
FS36622 Camouflage Gray - Comes in a spray can and a small bottle. (Though for some reason, I'm not too fond of this color.)

Tamiya:
TS-32 Haze Gray (spray)
Equivalant bottle - XF-19 Sky Gray???

Because the main hull is so huge, I'll need to spray paint that. Everything else which is small can be brush painted.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:30 am 
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Dave Wooley wrote:
If my memory serves me correct there was an in depth article on the Habbakuk project in "Warship , it's just remembering which edition?


It was in Warship quarterly No 18 and subsequently Warship annual Volume V.

Timmy C wrote:
For colour ideas, I would follow what other large USN ships (you're building her, despite the thread title, as an USN vessel, right?)


I'm confused; Habbakuk was not a USN project. :scratch:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Linux, read his third post in this thread ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:35 pm 
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I have to wonder if this project is too complicated for me. *sigh* :( So few illustrations, and so few official references. Everything about the Habbakuk is just one big GUESS. :scratch:
Anyway, getting back to the painting predicament.........I talked to my best friend tonight and he had a rather interesting comment to make. He said: "Why bother painting the hull when it's just going to melt anyway? That ship isn't going to last forever."

True, quite true. ;) As designed, the main hull had 40 FT. thick pykrete sides, bottom, and top as shown in this example schematics:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... rlord2.jpg
.......and on the right side of this pic: V
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... -plans.jpg
Trying to "paint" pykrete would have been impossible as the paint would not stick, and if the pykrete started to melt in any way, then the paint (if it was applied) would "melt" resulting in runs. Also, trying to paint a 2000 FT. long aircraft carrier would have been a major drain on paint resources when WWII was trying to conserve what it could. And there's no sense trying to "hide" (camoulflage) a ship this big when it could probably be spotted by high flying aircraft or German U-boats from far, far away.
However, in the first link, you can read where it says "Insulation" was used on the sides of the hull to probably protect the pykrete from melting or to help keep it cold, etc. This insulation would probably not be steel siding as steel was in short supply during WWII. Chances are, the insulation would have been possibly plywood/fibreboard as mentioned in the Wikipedia link I gave about the Habbakuk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
Any steel used in the Habbakuk would have been for refrigeration ductwork that ran through the pykrete to help keep it cold, and also for interior decks and superstructure, etc. only.
The following two pics show red lines added by me that indicate where the insulation would be:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... insul1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... insul2.jpg

So now, I pose the following questions:
1. Should I just leave the main wood hull that a friend is building, "as is" and not paint it?
2. If I do paint the wood hull, then what would be an appropriate color? I highly doubt there'd be a boot topping or the hull painted below the boot topping.
3. The bridge superstructure, guns, masts, etc. will get painted. Possibly some shade of light gray.
4. What would be a good color to paint the flight deck? (Flight deck is being laid down with Evergreen V-groove to simulate wood decking.)


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:39 pm 
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However, in the insulation pages you posted, their diagram shows that the carrier was to have a splinter camo of sorts, so they very well might have painted her. If the insulation was wooden planks or fibreboard, then they could very well paint that with no problem.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:47 am 
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Realistically, a 40ft thick slab of Pykrete would last a rather significantly long time, espeicially out on the ocean. Let us remember, that Pykrete's melting point is very different, and its durability is equally much different. Remember, the model that was built as proof of concept was significantly smaller in density in its places, and it was still intact and floating into the next summer.

As to the painting concept, let us take a moment to remember - Pykrete is not pure wood, nor is it pure ice, but a frozen slurry of sawdust suspended in water. So, to find an accurate colour, it would be something similar to a blended colour of both. If it was fitted with insulation plates, it would have been questionable if/when the carrier came under fire how effective that would be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:03 pm 
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And now for pics! :cool_2: I had a friend make the entire Habbakuk main hull for me out of wood since: a) I would've had no idea how to do it myself and don't have the time, supplies, or proper tools, and b) He's a very skilled woodworker. :thumbs_up_1: Before heading out to a movie today, he dropped the hull off at my apt.

To make the wood hull, I used these plans which were found in the following book:
http://www.amazon.com/J-D-Bernal-Sage-S ... 590&sr=1-1
Blueprint plans:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... lord1n.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... rlord2.jpg

Remember, this Habbakuk model I'm building is 1/700 scale. ;) Here's some pics of a 1/700 Nimitz AC hull and a Iowa battleship hull next to the wood Habbakuk hull for scale:

Image

In these two pics, you can see two WWII AC decks end to end as well as next to each other compared to the size of the Habbakuk. Also for scale is the bridge superstructure as well as a small F-18 for scale purposes::
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02124.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02125.jpg
Deck of a Nimitz AC compared to the deck of the Habbakuk:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02141.jpg
As I've mentioned before, this model is roughly 34" long x 5 1/2" wide x 3 1/2" tall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02126.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02127.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02128.jpg
Underside of the bow:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02129.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02132.jpg
At the stern of the hull:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02130.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02134.jpg
Bottom of the hull:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02138.jpg
Looking down the flight deck:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02136.jpg
I also had my friend "notch" (for lack of a better term) both ends of the hull and take off about 1/4". The reason for this was to possibly add some armament at both ends to defend the ends of the ship much the same way some WWII US aircraft carriers had guns at the bow and the stern.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/ ... C02135.jpg


Last edited by EJM on Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:21 pm 
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That's a nice hull! Great project, can't wait to see more. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:53 pm
Posts: 1021
Something kinda caught my eye over at the Shipcamouflage.com website and I wanted to ask more info. about it.

If you go to this page here:
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/paint_listing.htm
........and look in the listing on the right of "Ship Bottom Paint", you'll see Formula 16 which is a "Copper paint for wooden vessels".
I'm a bit confused as to why wooden vessels would have copper colored paint applied on the bottom of them? Were there any US Navy vessels that had this color applied? Did this paint formula have any special anti-fouling properties? I thought all vessels just used the standard red color on the bottoms of hulls?

I'm asking all this cause a person on another forum mentioned the following to me:
Quote:
Wallace's Warship article says of the outer layer for the Habbakuk:
Quote:
The outside hull would be insulated by a complex 9in thick composite material, made of plywood and insulation boards (masonite type) in 27 layers. This tough outer shell would dovetail together and be attached to the hull by 1ft 6in dowels embedded in the ice.

I don't think copper would look good on the Habbakuk hull.


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