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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:39 am 
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I am new to this site, and stumbled upon it by recommendation. I am impressed with what I am seeing here so far, and figure why not start a post about it, as I am doing a scratch build myself! I initially was going to make a website to document everything, but this will work just fine as well.

Brief Ship History
The USS Saint Paul, CA-73, was a Baltimore-class heavy cruiser. She was laid down in Bethlehem Steel's Quincy ship yard and ultimately launched in 1944. She saw a short but storied stint in the Pacific theater at the end of WWII. She is recognized as being the last major ship to fire a salvo during the war. She then became flagship in Shanghai until 1946. Between 1946 and 1950 she completed upgrades, and midshipmen training cruises. She spent time off the coast of Korea, and served along ships such as the USS Buck (DD-761), USS Wisconsin (BB-64), and the SS Lane Victory. Towards the middle of 1953, she fired the last naval round before the truce was signed. After refits, and several stints as a flagship, she was part of John Wayne's "In Harm's Way" before again being flagship. After a storied career, she was decommissioned in 1971, and scrapped in 1979. At the time of her decommissioning she was the final all gun Baltimore still in service, with the other two being Albany-class guided missile cruisers. Also, for a ship named after the Capitol of Minnesota, it is worth noting her bell resides in the Saint Paul City Hall, and the 4"/50 off of the USS Ward (DD-139) resides out front of the State Capitol in St. Paul. The gun was reportedly manned by a Minnesota reserve crew and fired the first US shot of WWII. (Definitely have more history I can cover, but not sure if this is the place)

Build Overview
I am planning on building a 1:192 scale RC model of the USS Saint Paul. I would have preferred a 1:96, but maybe at a future time. The vessel will primarily be 3D printed with the hull intending to be fiber glassed once printed and faired. I am looking to have two drive systems powering all 4 propellers. Ultimately I would like to draw from my RC model experience incorporate a RC camera on the bridge to do FPV navigating from the bridge (why not?!). Long term goal (not sure if 1:192 is the scale, or 1:96), would be to recreate the Mk34, Mk37, and Mk56 directors with cameras tied to the tubes and give an almost first person view of the ship. At 1:192 scale, the vessel will be about 42" long, 4.5" wide, and just over 6" tall.

Current Challenges
I have deck logs, booklet of general plans (from 1968), and other reference material which is amazing. The biggest challenge I have so far is drafting the hull in Fusion 360 (I have more time then money for the project). The hull is a surprisingly complex geometry. In tandem I am working on the super structure and that has been a blast so far! One of the photos I have below has a mystery "Y" shaped antenna I cannot for the life of me find, and a corrugated object below the SPS-8 Radar. I am not sure if that is a Corner Reflecting Antenna, or a heat shroud to protect the aft mast from the aft exhaust?

Sources
Booklet of general plans was obtained by working with a researcher who was able to obtain and provide a copy of the plans. Other sources have been from Navsource, where the majority of the photos have come from, along with Wikipedia as a starting point, and the Historic Naval Ship Association where I have found a treasure trove of information.


Attachments:
File comment: USS Saint Paul May 1966 -
Source: Navsource.org

Japan May 1966.jpg
Japan May 1966.jpg [ 241.92 KiB | Viewed 4211 times ]
File comment: USS Saint Paul off of Vietnam, July 1967 -
Source: Navsource.org

Vietnam July 1967.jpg
Vietnam July 1967.jpg [ 368.28 KiB | Viewed 4211 times ]
File comment: USS Saint Paul September 1968 -
Source: Navsource.org

Vietnam Sept 1968_2.jpg
Vietnam Sept 1968_2.jpg [ 135.93 KiB | Viewed 4211 times ]
File comment: Top left of photo I am unsure what the Y looking antenna is, along with the rectangle below the SPS-8 elevation radar.
Source: Navsource.org

Unknown items.jpg
Unknown items.jpg [ 53.56 KiB | Viewed 4211 times ]
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:24 pm 
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Location: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Sean,

This is the place to ask questions and post your build. I am looking forward to following it.

Is your "Y" shaped antenna in the last photo - the thing that looks like a "U" turned on its side? If so, the "U" is just a pipe that holds two AT-150 dipole antennas. See the attached data sheet.

I would guess the "corrugated box" in the third photo is an electronics enclosure, perhaps something to do with the radar.

****

You might be able to 3D print a 1:96 hull. Several people have printed large hulls in many pieces. If the 1:96 cross section is too wide for your printer you may be able to print each lengthwise section of the hull as two pieces - port and starboard halves.

Phil
http://www.okieboat.com

Attachment:
AT150-SRC.jpg
AT150-SRC.jpg [ 1.38 MiB | Viewed 4198 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:35 am 
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Location: Mocksville, NC
Sean,
Welcome to The Ship Model Forum! As Dr. PR said, you came to the right place :thumbs_up_1:

There are several of us who are building 3D designed/printed parts and models so this should be an interesting build; for you as well as us.

Re CA-73 - I was aboard USS STODDARD (DD-566) in 1967 when we passed her entering port in San Diego, we were headed out for a week of training. I have one small Polaroid photo I took of her - quite a sight. About a year later I was serving in USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) and headed for WestPac. We operated in opposite time slots with ST. PAUL.

Hank

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BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:36 am 
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Welcome aboard!

You will find the active modelers here uniformly helpful. A very interesting project, one that will keep everybody entertained for some time. Several 3D printers are here and active as well as workers in mixed media. Hank Strub for instance is working on his dear Stoddard over in WIP as it is a kit bash using the Revel hull. Pascal has built a number of very successful 3D ships including BB Bretagne. I have 3D printed in 1:144 USS Caine (Herman Wouk) and USS Whitehurst (DE) and added a lot of 3D stuff to my APA Randall and 1:192 Alaska CB1 and Missouri (modern).

No matter what we all learn more as a member becomes a friend and we all learn together as the usual obstacles are overcome.

Best regards: Tom


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:47 am 
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Attachment:
InkedUSS St Paul 1966 Mast.jpg
Thank you for the welcome!

DrPR;
The antenna in question is horizontal (looks like a TV antenna or Yagi antenna of some sort) above the Romeo flag, forward of the AN/SPS-8A Radar height finder. The vessel has a surprising number of AT-150 antennas! I have definitely enjoyed comparing the BoGP antennas to the photos, and then using certain web pages and "Shipboard Antennas" by Preston E. Law Jr. to identify them.

That does make sense with regards to the electronics enclosure as there were upgrades made in 1968 which most noticeably converted the AN/URN-3 TACAN to the newer AN/URN-20 TACAN.

For 3D printing, definitely doable. Running the vessel on lakes the 1:96 may be more stable. Fitting a 7' boat in my condo may be a challenge though!

DavidP;
The cameras are still a work in progress, but I know digikey has several micro sized cameras that would work well if connected to the optical range finder tubes. 1:192 scale may be hard to accomplish that, but may make large scale 1:96 as well.

BB62vet;
Thank you for the welcome!
I appreciate that, there are a lot of great 3D resources on here. The challenge is part of the fun! I do not anticipate this taking only a month or two, but some of the best projects are those that take time!

It would be quite the sight to see her in person. Closest I have been is touring the USS Salem (CA-139). Doing research for this project I stumbled upon some information that a great uncle, who served on the USS Nashville (CL-43) may have also been on the USS St. Paul as a Coxswain when both were in Shanghai (still verifying that).

Fliger747;
Thank you as well for the welcome!
I have been impressed with the information here so far. Lots of valuable information and discussions.

General Comments
Part of what makes this interesting to me is learning the history of both the ship and crew, as well as diving into systems and learning about all the nuance between different iterations of the same equipment. I have an excel workbook that is keeping tabs on things to model, as well as progress on each item (initial information pull, modeling, printing, painting and final assembly). This vessel has been interesting as well as it received a more robust forward mast, as well as a unique structure between the forward and aft funnels which supported her use as a flagship and contained many flag staff support and cryptography functions.

I have attached another view of the mystery antenna, as well as version one of the aft section of the hull. The first version here fits the general profile of the vessel, but not the curvature, especially in the bow. This first version is more of a "In Theory this will work".

More to come!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:00 am 
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Somehow the first one attached without the proper pictures! They are attached here.


Attachments:
File comment: Antenna circled in red hard to tell from this angle, but it looks like a TV or Yagi antenna of some sort
Source: Navsource.org

InkedUSS St Paul 1966 Mast.jpg
InkedUSS St Paul 1966 Mast.jpg [ 204.58 KiB | Viewed 4156 times ]
File comment: Fusion 360 Model of the aft section with a preliminary design of the rudder with stuffing box around rudder shaft. Skeg would be a separate component.
CAD Model V1.png
CAD Model V1.png [ 113.9 KiB | Viewed 4156 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:15 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
sgrog04, could use the webcams from dead/damaged laptops as they are usb based & use 5v.


Absolutely. At 1:192 scale, the roughly 2' tubes would be about 1/8" in diameter. Several ways that can be accounted for (optics, small camera, etc). I enjoy RC plane builds and electronics, so it will be fun getting some unique first person views hopefully (might take a year or two, but worth it!)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2023 8:31 pm 
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By the time you get around to the camera part perhaps available technology will have advanced. I once wandered around Hong Kong with one of my FO's who did investigative films and we looked at all sorts of tiny equipment, which I am sure has become more sophisticated since. I wonder if the corrugated sheet in the photo above had something to do with calibrating radars in an exercise?

My guess is that with current SLA printers that maybe 5-6 sections might be required for a hull. Large hulls have been printed using filament type printers but I have not done this and can't comment with any knowledge. For some one who is printing it can be fun to accumulate various things like armament and superstructure items. I initially scratch built both Alaska and Missouri in 1:192 with traditional methods and have continued to upgrade them with printed items.

Good luck! Tom


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:52 am 
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Fliger747 wrote:
By the time you get around to the camera part perhaps available technology will have advanced. I once wandered around Hong Kong with one of my FO's who did investigative films and we looked at all sorts of tiny equipment, which I am sure has become more sophisticated since. I wonder if the corrugated sheet in the photo above had something to do with calibrating radars in an exercise?

My guess is that with current SLA printers that maybe 5-6 sections might be required for a hull. Large hulls have been printed using filament type printers but I have not done this and can't comment with any knowledge. For some one who is printing it can be fun to accumulate various things like armament and superstructure items. I initially scratch built both Alaska and Missouri in 1:192 with traditional methods and have continued to upgrade them with printed items.

Good luck! Tom


Thank you! And that is a great thought about the corrugation and calibration.

I think that sounds about right with 5-6 sections. I am definitely excited once my job allows me time to work on it! Haha.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 3:26 pm 
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Project update!

Upon further research, I am going to bump the model scale up from 1:192, to 1:144. Chief reason among them is part availability, plus it should be more stable on the local lakes I would be taking it for a spin on.

I found a company that has 1:144 scale fiberglass hulls for the Baltimore class, as well as Brooklyn class (future project, through this project found out a family member was on the USS Nashville CL-43 during WWII). Several companies have some of the finer details which will be great. I am working on designing the superstructure in CAD (more then capable of that, the hull was beyond my skill set).

Over the next month or two I plan on posting some updates of the superstructure progress. I am quite excited to start seeing physical progress!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:47 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
make certain the 1:144 scale fiberglass hull has the somewhat rounded stern for the St. Paul & not the squared off stern of the Baltimore like this. https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/068/0406811.jpg
https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/068/04068.htm


Most definitely! The St. Paul had the modified stern (as compared to the lead ship of the class). She also had only one of the aircraft hoists on the stern vs the earlier vessels which had two. Ideally I am modeling her as she was on the deployment in 1967 (Between drydock stints). The Booklet of General Plans I have are last dated 1970, but more closely match the 1966-1967 configuration based off of photos.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:53 pm 
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DavidP wrote:
digital version of the Booklet of General Plans or paper?


Digitized version of the Booklet of General Plans. I worked with a Research Consultant.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:52 pm 
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It has been a minute, and several dozen hours drafting away in Fusion 360. Currently I am on version 3 of the hull (I am good with nice simple geometries like bikes, or RV trailers), the complex geometry, especially of the bow and stern are proving to be quite a challenge (I will get there eventually)! Mechanically and widget wise, things are coming along decent!

Due to part availability, and ease of fitting into my work space, I found that 1:144 scale will work better then the 1:192 scale initially planned. Plus it will be a little more stable on the lakes near me (Reality, anything more then a light breeze will be like being in a sea state of 10 or higher, so Ill have to find calmer bodies of water - Some get up to 6 foot waves, probably a good day to leave the model in the shop).

In version 2 of the hull I started working on the superstructure, but want to hold off until I can get the hull ironed out. I found a great hull tutorial/guide here: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/28912-how-to-design-ships-in-fusion-360-and-3d-print-them/#comment-825624

Propulsion wise, I am looking at using two brushless motors powering a gearbox with one motor going to the two outboards, and one combo going to the two inboard propellers.

Image should post with this here, not my best work, but it is a work in progress, learning a lot along the way, and finding out about all sorts of history, and going down the rabbit hole (Plan to build the USS Nashville CL43, USS Minneapolis CA36, and maybe the USS Duluth CL87 - notice a slight trend towards cruisers?).


Attachments:
Hull V3.jpg
Hull V3.jpg [ 110.92 KiB | Viewed 3599 times ]
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:10 am 
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That would probably make for a simpler drive train, and be better for steering I would imagine too. All good feedback!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 10:32 pm 
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There is some caution that going for too large a ship may result in a project that never gets finished. As you have Fusion 360 and I presume a printer, you will find that you will probably desire to make all the other components yourself. The scale will become irrelevant. A 144 ship will be about 2.4 times the volume of the 192 version.

Good luck!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:37 am 
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Fliger747 wrote:
There is some caution that going for too large a ship may result in a project that never gets finished.


I fully agree with this!

Initially I was planning on a 1:192 scale as the Book of General Plans I have for the vessel would be a 1 to 1. Ultimately I wanted to maximize stability and scale size for being able to add things in the future (electronics to turrets, cameras, etc). To see if it fit in my constraints (wall mount, and in the back of my car) I made cardboard cut outs at the different sizes and the 1:192 and 1:144 both fit, the 1:96 scale was to large for my constraints. I also test printed parts at the three scales on my 3D printer, and the resolution was okay, some of the detail issues could be solved by using a .2mm nozzle and having finer resolution (small widgets like hose reels, 3"50 turrets and radars/electronics).

I have a workbook I created to compare the sizes, and take around 30 known measurements and come up with scale equivalents.

In terms of current steps, I am jointly working on Rev 4 of the hull, and working to determine what level of detail I want as it will be "mounted" for display in my house and will be a lake worthy model (along with future projects of USS Nashville CL-43 and USS Minneapolis CA-36). Ill probably try to incorporate things like ladders, antennas, search lights, but not sure how much detail I will include.

Not rushing the design process as I want to sort through as much ahead of time before building to try and save some headaches long term.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:54 pm 
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Just my opinion, but you might want to acquire a resin printer for detail items. The string printer probably better for hulls!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:14 pm 
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For maneuvering it is best to have separate speed/direction controls for port and starboard engines. This is especially true for maneuvering to and away from piers and moorings. It is common to use a combination of forward/reverse engines and rudder to swing the stern of a ship away from the pier when getting underway.

With careful application of forward and aft engine controls it is possible to "twist ship" to cause the vessel to pivot 360 degrees around the center of gravity without moving forward or backward. This procedure was used to align the compass with known points on land around a harbor.

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:21 am 
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Having recently used a 3rd party to get a detailed print done in resin (Amateur Radio project), the cost would definitely be well justified for a larger project like this. It is definitely high on the list of things to investigate further while I draft everything in CAD.

The port/starboard separation makes sense. As I get the hull finalized, I will be looking at several drive systems. That is good advice to keep in mind!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2023 12:53 am 
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Actually the term is "swinging the ship" to align the compass. The vessel is turned through 360 degrees, stopping eight times so the ship's bow points to an object on shore of known position. After the ship's actual position is determined (compass readings, radar, GPS, etc.) the bearing to the distant object from a chart is compared to the compass reading. A deviation plot is created from these readings. The magnetic compass has several iron pieces that can be adjusted to compensate for tilt and magnetic anomalies caused by the ship's structure.

To turn the ship around a point engines on one side (port/starboard) are run forward and those on the opposite side are run in reverse. The thrust from the ship's propellers (forward and aft) passes through the ship's center of gravity/mass. The trick to swinging the ship around a specific geographical position is to get the same magnitude force in the forward and aft vectors through the center of gravity. Since propellers typically are more efficient pushing forward than aft it is necessary to adjust the RPM of each engine to get the ship to spin around a single point. This is tricky and requires careful coordination with the engine room.

In reality water and air currents influence the ship's motion, as does the resistance to movement through the water of the forward and aft parts of the ship. The actual "point" about which the ship spins varies, but is fairly close to the center of gravity.

Phil

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