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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:20 am 
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Hi Andrew starting to look the part , neat planking . Regarding your question on covering the planked hull , There is no doubting that a layer of matt improves stength and provided a good surface for applying the fillers but this can also add weight . I guess it all depends on how good you feel the planking is. In the past I have covered the hull with light weight GRP tissue and the heavier grades, as well as just applying resin to the planked surface. But on both counts I've coated the inside of the hull with a layer of GRP matting.
Dave Wooley :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:19 pm 
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It is almost impossible to get planks to run edge to edges they approach the bow and stern, it is far better to allow them to follow their natural curve and the fit “stealers” in the gaps; to do it the way you appear to doing also puts strain in the frame and is more than likely to distort it. I would also use blocks between the first two frames at the bow.

It is important in my view, to resin, with or without fine glass cloth the interior, for two reasons 1) to make it watertight and 2) to prevent rot setting in. I also pour resin into the very bottom to form a proper seal between the first planks either side of it; I also pour resin into any voids at the bow and stern so that you have a solid block of resin to rub down against and, if necessary, sand all the timber away if this is what is required to maintain the correct “run” in a tight area such as at the bow and stern.

Once the resin has gone off, which should happen fairly quickly down there I expect, but you should still allow 24 hours for it to cure. If the hull is fairly solid and there is no play between the fames you can begin to rub down the exterior without to much fear of dishing between the frames. When you are satisfied with the result I would recommend giving it several coats of resin again with or without a fine glass cloth. Then the real hard works starts. You will need various grades of wet and dry paper and plenty of elbow grease; it will take time to achieve the final finish but in the end it will be worthwhile. There will be minimal weight increase and you appear to have more then enough leeway.

Although it is to late now the method that you have chosen to make the hull has only exasperated your problem. It would have been far better to have used planks throughout and used “stealers” around the turn of the bilge for instance after all you are not building an 18th century ship of the line where each plank can be seen. Once you have painted the hull no one will ever see your work. Using a single plank or maybe two joined at midships gives, in my view anyway, a far more pleasing line then a series of what seem to be, disjoined panels.

Building modelboats can be a steep but enjoyable, learning curve sometimes, and I have made the same mistakes in the past and learnt from them. The methods I have described are those I now use and they have proved to be very successful.

This looks a nice project and it will interesting to see it progress and completed.

Scouse.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:10 am 
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scousegit wrote:
It is almost impossible to get planks to run edge to edges they approach the bow and stern, it is far better to allow them to follow their natural curve and the fit “stealers” in the gaps; to do it the way you appear to doing also puts strain in the frame and is more than likely to distort it. I would also use blocks between the first two frames at the bow.

Scouse.


Hi Scouse,

I must admit, I was a bit "cranky :Mad_5: " when I read your post after all I am :newbie: , and i was doing so well :big_grin: :big_grin:

Anyway, I went down to the dry dock thinking " I'll show him, strain and distortion in deed......", turned Varyag over to check her lines (for the first time since stating to plank) and to my chagrin, the forward part of the keel between frame 1 and 2 had in fact been pulled over to the port side. :Oops_1: :Oops_1: :Oops_1: .

Luckily. it is not too late, I released the top 4 planks from frame 2 and hey presto the keel sprung back to nearly straight. A slight compression and securing to a balsa block between frames 1 and 2 and all is square again. :woo_hoo:

So Scouse, thank you for the lesson, even if it was hard to swallow :thanks: :thanks:,

I must also admit that Heavy Cruiser had earlier suggested I put stringers on those frames, had I followed the advice i think the twist would not have happened. Anyway, all fixed now thanks to the forum and some "constructive" critique.

Regards,

Andrew

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Ex RAN. Anzac, Duchess, Vampire, Yarra, Betano, Bombard, Brisbane, Swan, Melbourne (Carrier), HMS Leander


Last edited by Ticonderoga on Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:15 am 
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Dave Wooley wrote:
Hi Andrew starting to look the part , neat planking . Regarding your question on covering the planked hull , There is no doubting that a layer of matt improves stength and provided a good surface for applying the fillers but this can also add weight . I guess it all depends on how good you feel the planking is. In the past I have covered the hull with light weight GRP tissue and the heavier grades, as well as just applying resin to the planked surface. But on both counts I've coated the inside of the hull with a layer of GRP matting.
Dave Wooley :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:




Hi Dave, thanks for the comments, given the advice from yourself and Scouse, I will go the glass mat as well as resin route.

Guys do you typically glass the inside first or the outside first, or does it matter?

Regards

Andrew

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:47 am 
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I would do the inside with resin 1st Tico, then resin the outside give a light sand then do cloth / resin layer, then light sand then more resin...and then sand some more!! then filler, once you r happy with hull surface give her another coat of resin or use flowcoat for final coat 2 seal the filler.....then sand some more for final surface.
Your plank work is wicked mate! My attempts at that style of planking have never turned out well!

Cheers Bruce :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :cool_1: :cool_1:

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building:
1/72 RC USS LONG BEACH CGN9
1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:51 am 
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P.s. weight is not going 2 be a problem for a hull like this so use as much resin as you like inside hull!! Your still gonna need some ballast later on !!!!

Bruce :cool_2: :cool_2:

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1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:15 am 
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Hi Andrew the Master of scratch building ARH covers the whole subject of building and prepearing a plank on frame hull at the top of the board in a Sticky , very useful information .
A few years back I built the hull for the Russian armoured cruiser Rurik2 . Here is a slightly different approach , the method used was plank on frame using lime strip . Each edge was splayed and bonded with extramite a waterproof wood glue as such the joints where a tight fit . When sanded down the surface only required a coat of varnish sealer. No GRP no resin and no copious amounts of fillers , Like those built by ARH the Rurik hull is light and very strong.
Hope this helps .
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:17 pm 
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For what it is worth, hull twisting is not limited to plank on frame. Pre-moulded fiberglass hulls are fairly flimsy, and you need to be very careful when adding internal structure to avoid twising the hull. It is something to watch for in any type of scratchbuilt hull.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Dave Wooley wrote:
Hi Andrew the Master of scratch building ARH covers the whole subject of building and prepearing a plank on frame hull at the top of the board in a Sticky , very useful information .
A few years back I built the hull for the Russian armoured cruiser Rurik2 . Here is a slightly different approach , the method used was plank on frame using lime strip . Each edge was splayed and bonded with extramite a waterproof wood glue as such the joints where a tight fit . When sanded down the surface only required a coat of varnish sealer. No GRP no resin and no copious amounts of fillers , Like those built by ARH the Rurik hull is light and very strong.
Hope this helps .

Dave Wooley


Thanks Dave,

I really look forward to your comment and assistance. :worship_1:

I have read the build threads you mentioned a few times now, they are very helpful and informative. There are a couple of good instructive threads on Model Mayhem as well.

My "planks" are ripped from 3mm ply sheets using a band saw, so the quality of the edges is not perfect. :Oops_1: I also made a mistake with the early planks in that I did not glue them along the entire edge. The majority of them are glued now. I used an exterior PVA wood glue.

The hull, even at this early stage, feels nice and strong, solid and is now very straight. I am especially pleased with the complex curves around the foot of the ship and the transition into the sonar dome.

Some of my planks are a little more "clinker" looking than absolutely flush, so I will have a bit of work to do with the sand paper, just therapeutic work...... :nod_1: I am sure I will get better with practice :big_grin:

I have also learned the importance of accurate frames. I think I must have undercut a couple as I have a hollow or two on the underside of the hull near the bilge curves. I have to learn to be a little more accurate, go a little slower with my work and check more rigorously.

I will definitely use a fiberglass mat and resin on the inside of the hull. I will need it for waterproofing at the very least. Once that is done, I will work on the exterior finish with sandpaper then decide on the final finish when I can assess how things are looking.

Bottom line, I am really enjoying this whole experience and I am so pleased I embarked on the task, even as a rank beginner. I have not worked a piece of wood since I left 1st year Penketh and Sankey Secondary Modern school in the UK many many years ago. I am also enjoying the camaraderie and sense of belonging that one develops on this and other forums. Thanks all.

For those reading who are considering taking the plunge, do it! a self built hull is so satisfying. I have learned that wood is a "forgiving" material and you soon learn "tricks" to fix your inevitable mistakes.

I can't wait to "launch" her into the fitting out phase, hopefully by the end of November, real job permitting.

Thanks a lot for all the support guys, especially Dave. Please keep the comments coming (but not too harsh, I am very sensitive and shy :puppy_eyes:), I need all the help I can get.

Andrew :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Andrew,

I recommend that you coat the inside of the hull planking with epoxy paint (or ordinary fiberglas resin) before you try to finish sanding the hull. I have built a number of planked hulls (sailing ships) and found that the planking wasn't stable for quite a while after initial construction. Occasionally a plank edge would lift a very small amount, or a slight gap would open between planks, but it was very obvious on the painted hull. I tried everything I could think of, including nailing every plank at every frame, and still an occasional crack and raised edge appeared.

I don't remember why I tried it, but on one hull I just coated the entire interior with a two-part epoxy paint - used on model airplanes to provide a fuel-tight sealer around the motors. It was about the consistency of thick motor oil, but it soaked into the wood. It worked perfectly to fasten the planks in place. After it hardened (24 hours) every plank was securely fastened to its neighbors and the hull framing. It was very easy to finish the sanding, and the hull hasn't cracked in the 18 years since I built it! It is still just as smooth as I built it.

It would be good to get more opinions here if it is necessary to fiberglass the inside of the hull (using fiber cloth in addition to just the resin).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:22 pm 
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Thanks Dr. P,

The consensus is certainly to work the inside first, so that is what I will do.

Regards,

Andrew

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:18 am 
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Hi Andrew This is not a plug , excuse the pun but there is a book "Warships and Warship Modelling" that explains in detail all of the methods so far disscussed it may be helpful to you. Keep going as you are on the right track and as you say there is nothing in Modelling that gives more satisfaction than building from scratch.
Dave Wooley :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:21 am 
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Thanks Dave, the book arrived last week :big_grin: :big_grin:

With a bit of luck maybe I can get it signed in November..........

:wave_1: :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:53 am 
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Ticonderoga wrote:
Thanks Dave, the book arrived last week :big_grin: :big_grin:

With a bit of luck maybe I can get it signed in November..........

:wave_1: :wave_1:

Andrew it will be my pleasure , I do hope you can arrange a trip over to the UK and Telford a show not to be missed.
Dave Wooley :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:36 am 
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hi Everyone,

A quick update before I head of on another business trip. Canada, Holland and Singapore on this trip, s no building for about two weeks :Mad_5: :Mad_5:

Progress has been a little slow, Father in law is still very sick, we had a minor flood and work has been busy, oh well. :huh: :huh:

We are getting close now. The sonar is taking a while, one plank at a time. The weather was very nice today so I took the pics out in the garden. You will see in one of the shots, I had a visitor :smallsmile:

Image

The keel is on and feathered in on one side

Image

Sonar dome nearly planked, one side will have to be trimmed down a little.

Image

Bow shear looking nice

Image

Stbd quarter showing the transom roughed in. (Balsa block that will be planked)

Image

My visitor

Image

Port side

A little slow on the production side, should be ready for "leak" trials by December. Props, shafts and rudder ordered from George

Thanks for looking.

:wave_1: :wave_1: :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:22 am 
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Hi Andrew really impressive . Once the hull is complete and the running gear installed then that almost 50% of the construction of the model , half way there. Great build and looking the part. press on.
Dave Wooley :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :wave_1:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:07 pm 
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That is really cool mate! Very nice bit of planking around sonar dome, she's coming along very swiftly.

Bruce :cool_1: :cool_1:

P.S. Its a 'Ballast check' not a leak check! ain't no way your ship will leak once she is covered in f/glass!!

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building:
1/72 RC USS LONG BEACH CGN9
1/72 RC USS CALIFORNIA CGN36
1/72 RC USS SAIPAN LHA2
1/72 RC USS JOHN PAUL JONES DDG53
1/72 RC USS SHARK SSN591
1/72 RC USS SEAWOLF SSN21
1/72 RC USS ALBANY CG10


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:01 am 
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i have some drawings i take in NET but i don't remember where exactly i take this.
i think you have a good plan

You had placed my plans illegally.

Please, delete it as soon as possible.
Scanned plans that you had located here has poor quality. Better to have legal copy with good quality.

I want to ask administrator to delete information about address of pirates too.

Andrey Gorbunov,
GMS owner

www.gmsmodeling.pl.ru


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:16 am 
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I find illegal copies of my plans here.
There is infortation about Russian pirate sites here.
I want to ask administrator to delete this illegal information.

Better to buy legal plans with good quality.

Andrey Gorbunov,
GMS owner

www.gmsmodeling.pl.ru


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Andrew,

I have been following your build. I think the Slavas are good looking ships.

One thing I have been wondering about is the stern on your model. The Slavas had a large recess in the underside of the hull along the centerline at the stern - it is sometimes called "the tunnel" and there has been much speculation what it is for. Quite a few photos have been posted on the forum showing this feature.
Are you planning on cutting this into the hull later?

Here is a photo of the Moskva in drydock.


Attachments:
Moskva stern.jpg
Moskva stern.jpg [ 139.13 KiB | Viewed 2024 times ]

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