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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:57 pm 
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I want to tell you about a friend of mine. His name is Bruno Gire. Bruno lives in France. I live in America. We have never met, but we've been corresponding for the past three years over the internet. I 'e-met' him on Steel Navy (of all places) and we quickly discovered that though we were born at different times on different continents we have very similar tastes in ships.

Bruno was kind enough to tell me about a site where you can download hundreds of digitized plans of warships from the National Archives of France. Needless to say, I was thrilled! Being a huge fan of French Pre-Dreadnoughts, but not being a big fan of Bad Resin (expensive kits that are inaccurate and badly cast) I was in somewhat of a quandry at the time, as it looked like I had few options for building a really exciting French Pre-Dreadnought from a kit. Combrig had just started to put out FPD's, the Voltaire, the Jeanne d'Arc and the Danton, as well as the Henri V, but nothing with tumble-home and those really great 'Vernian' fighting tops. At the same time I was beginning to seriously contemplate scratch building for the first time, and was beginning to realize that, with the plans at hand from the Archives I could build almost anything I wanted to. Bruno's thought were heading the same direction at the same time. I seriously considered the Hoche, the Carnot (especially after reading Jim Baumann's excellent build of it) and a few others, but, for my first real effort at scratch building I wanted to start on something that hopefully would not be too difficult, a fairly simple hull shape, something I could hone my skills on, and secondly, something not likely to be upstaged by a kit any time soon. I looked briefly at the Gloire, the world's first Ironclad warship, but was soon drawn to one of her later cousins, the Solferino, the only double-decker broadside ironclad ever built, and the first steam-powered warship to be built with a ram bow.
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She seemed to fit all of my needs, so I jotted down an email to Bruno, announcing my intentions, confident that he would be excited about it...

Well, he was more than excited about it, and, long story short, we decided to collaborate on the project. Bruno decided to design a PE set for the Solferino in both 350th and 700th scale that would contain hull sections, PE relief-etched deck, armor plated sides, plus an entire sheet of details, ratlines, bridges, etc. In addition we decided that we would try and find someone who could turn brass guns and masts for us, the complete picture...

In the meantime I got involved in building carracks, doing casting masters for Rusty White of Flagship Models and a few other things. Bruno got started, and then got busy. Then 'Contest Season' hit and I really got busy trying to get some carracks done for the shows I wanted to enter. This meant that, although I had the Solferino parts ready to go (or at least enough to get started) I wouldn't actually have time to start on the build until after the first of August. So here we are, almost a year after I had the idea to scratch build a Solferino in 1/700th scale, building the Solferino in both 700th and 350th Scale. We'll cover both efforts on this same thread.

I started with the 350th Parts.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:10 pm 
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I've never built a casting master from both steel and plastic before, and combining the two materials causes some special problems that require unique solutions. First of all, I was very concerned about the overall strength of steel parts being glued together. If I had more skills I might have attempted to solder them, but that is still completely outside my area of expertize...
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So instead I decided to lay styrene rod on either side of the section plates as I glued them to the base, to hopefully reinforce them and create a sturdy, stable structure.
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The result was both strong and strangely flexible. I could take the completed base+sections and actually bend it slightly, or even undulate it in my hands if I wanted to...So far everything was looking good.
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Relief-Etched Deck plate dry fitted to check alignment and compatibility.
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Penny for scale. For me this is a fairly big model.
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I decided flexibility was overrated and chose to glue a very sturdy rod to the base. Eventually I will scratch build the lower hull onto this base and this rod will be buried in the interior of the hull...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:20 pm 
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Location: turning into a power-hungry Yamato-models-munching monster... buahahahaha...
Ehm, just one word -

W O W !!!!!!! :good_job: :yeah:

Really, really impressive! Thanks for sharing!

Jorit

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:26 pm 
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I told Bruno the deck and armor plates were very 'steely' and hard to work with. He explained to me that they would have to be 'annealed.' :heh: heated up until they were red-hot and then allowed to cool. He said once they were cool they would be as soft and easy to work as brass... He was right, as usual. :thumbs_up_1:
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This was a new experience for me, and my daughters were very curious to know why I was 'cooking' model parts over the stove. I tried my best to explain it to them, but I think they just filed the whole experience under 'crazy things Dad does for his models...' :big_grin:
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After these shots were made, I realized if I took the grating off, I could put the parts right in the flame and get them hotter quicker.
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Complete set of armor parts+deck plate ready to work into the hull structure. Notice how the deck has been distorted by annealing. Because of its large thin shape it was more difficult to anneal than the others. It tended to get very hot very quickly in one spot, causing the distortion you see here. Hopefully I will be able to make it work.

Annealing also burned the color of the parts from silvery steel to a dark 'burned metal' sort of color that was very similar to the color of Armor... after a little bit of thought, I realized it was precisely the same color as armor, and for the same reason. :cool_2:
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Why fit the armor plates now? Why not wait until after the hull has been filled in to make a solid block? Well... I didn't want to have to drill and shape each gun port in the hull after filling it in. Not only would that be difficult and tedious, but since the port was already there in steel, it would mean that my knife would be periodically scraping that steel, which would be bad for the blade, bad for the steel, or both. What I decided was that I would need to create a kind of 'cofferdam' or 'square hole' for each of the gun-ports from styrene, essentially a 5-sided box that fit the exact shape of each port prior to filling out the hull. That prospect did not excite me much either, but it seemed better than the alternative.
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Sometimes the alternative to 'tedious and difficult' is itself tedious and difficult, but I think I have actually come up with a solution. This is the state of the build as of now. I'll post back when I've tried out my idea for making the gunport casting boxes. Wish me luck, and happy modeling! :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:29 pm 
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JWintjes wrote:
Ehm, just one word -

W O W !!!!!!! :good_job: :yeah:

Really, really impressive! Thanks for sharing!

Jorit


Thank you Jorit! Most kind. :wave_1: Thanks for stopping by. :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:24 pm 
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Hi Neal, :wave_1:

Just wanted to add we must thank Jim Baumann for the annealing idea to get more ductile nickel alloy.

As for the "steel hull flexibility" this shouldn't be any as soon as the space between frames are filled with solid blocks.
So no need to reinforce the framing.
See my built of USS Minneapolis lower hull here:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=57462
(scroll down to bottom of page one)
You can fill the spacing using any material which is softer than metal: balsa wood, prototyping board: during the following filling-sanding stage, metal frames serve as natural template/ stopping device to get the correct shape without any checking measurement: that's the very reason this method is GREAT!

And about the gun ports: no need to have a recess box behind each one.
Remind you'll have to glue the 60 guns protruding through the ports: the masters I designed and we got turned by the excellent Piotr of Master Models only include the protruding part.
The best solution is to fill the space inside the armor plates, only leaving the recess resulting from the plate thickness (.2mm), then painting this shallow recess flat black and gluing a gun right in the middle. Each gun will cover about 85% of the port area, so it's OK for me.
_Bruno

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:53 pm 
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bgire wrote:
Hi Neal, :wave_1:

Just wanted to add we must thank Jim Baumann for the annealing idea to get more ductile nickel alloy.


Jim, are you listening? See now here I'm using another one of your tips, and I didn't even know it. :thumbs_up_1:

bgire wrote:
As for the "steel hull flexibility" this shouldn't be any as soon as the space between frames are filled with solid blocks.
So no need to reinforce the framing.


I was concerned with breakage during construction, particularly as I was anticipating needing to have the hull hollow for a while due to the gunport issue... :heh:

bgire wrote:
See my built of USS Minneapolis lower hull here:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=57462
(scroll down to bottom of page one)
You can fill the spacing using any material which is softer than metal: balsa wood, prototyping board: during the following filling-sanding stage, metal frames serve as natural template/ stopping device to get the correct shape without any checking measurement: that's the very reason this method is GREAT!


It is a great method. Saved me a lot of trouble. I will still need to scratch the lower hull, but that shouldn't be any big deal. Actually I'm looking forward to it. Studying the plan:

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It looked like you used the same sections indicated on the plan, while omitting the middle four or five for simplicity's sake. Is that right? I'd like for my lower hull sections to line up with yours.

bgire wrote:
And about the gun ports: no need to have a recess box behind each one.
Remind you'll have to glue the 60 guns protruding through the ports: the masters I designed and we got turned by the excellent Piotr of Master Models only include the protruding part.
The best solution is to fill the space inside the armor plates, only leaving the recess resulting from the plate thickness (.2mm), then painting this shallow recess flat black and gluing a gun right in the middle. Each gun will cover about 85% of the port area, so it's OK for me.
_Bruno
[/quote]

Well that puts a different complexion on things, doesn't it? With the gun port lid hanging over the protruding barrel there really won't be much to see of that gun port. Glad you dropped by mon ami! :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:59 pm 
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Hello,

Impressive project !!!
I will follow it closely.

All the very best,
Eric

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:27 am 
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:thumbs_up_1:
I am looking forward to seeing more of this!
Cheers,
Guido

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:31 am 
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Nice model (but in a much to small scale. Great ships need largeness! :thumbs_up_1: ), but I think that won't be an easy one (especially with the rigging in 1:350/700). But as much more french ships of the pre-dreadnaught-era should be built (they are certainly the aesthetically most appealing ships of all times - unfortunately, that's what make them a hell to build): Good luck!

A modelling comrade of mine took some pictures of the Solferino-model in the Museé national de la Marine, Paris and Toulon. It may be of help: http://www.wefalck.eu/mm/maritime/Paris/frenchironclads.html


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:32 am 
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Spectacular again Neal.

Cheers,

Rob

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:57 am 
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callen wrote:
It looked like you used the same sections indicated on the plan, while omitting the middle four or five for simplicity's sake. Is that right? I'd like for my lower hull sections to line up with yours.


Yes, that's the method I'm using: I paste the original plan as a background layer in my drawing soft and I directly draw over the sections...
Always NO measurement and maximum accuracy... just keeping the cool part of model building :thumbs_up_1:
_Bruno

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:25 pm 
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This is ridicilous, but in a good way! :woo_hoo:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Fantastic idea and it looks great so far.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:13 am 
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Nieuport wrote:
Hello,

Impressive project !!!
I will follow it closely.

All the very best,
Eric


Hey Eric! Thanks for stopping by. :wave_1: I'm very excited about this project for all kinds of reasons, and am hoping to transmit some of that enthusiasm to my friends here on the board.

Guido wrote:
:thumbs_up_1:
I am looking forward to seeing more of this!
Cheers,
Guido


Hey Guido! We'll keep you posted.

Egberth wrote:
Nice model (but in a much to small scale. Great ships need largeness! :thumbs_up_1: ),


haha! I know what you mean Egberth. These scales are 'kit builder's scales,' also 'young man's scales,' etc. I've got this sinister scheme to build through the whole scope of Naval History in one consistent scale though... from the cave man on a log to a supere-carrier. :big_grin:

Egberth wrote:
but I think that won't be an easy one (especially with the rigging in 1:350/700).


You're right. Actually I've found the rigging to be the biggest challenge with ships in this scale. The builds from my Portuguese Carrack thread: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=68243
were (are) a real bear when it comes to rigging. In some ways the Solferino will be easier in that respect, since it is larger and the rigging was not quite so intricate. In other ways it will be more challenging since the info on the rigging is more certain and 'nailed down.' The good news is the bowsprit netting and the ratlines/shrouds are taken care of with PE. Whew!

Egberth wrote:
But as much more french ships of the pre-dreadnaught-era should be built (they are certainly the aesthetically most appealing ships of all times - unfortunately, that's what make them a hell to build): Good luck!


I'm a sucker for anything that combines steam and sail. Always have been to be honest. :thumbs_up_1:

Egberth wrote:
A modelling comrade of mine took some pictures of the Solferino-model in the Museé national de la Marine, Paris and Toulon. It may be of help: http://www.wefalck.eu/mm/maritime/Paris/frenchironclads.html


E!!!!!!!!! Man! I've been looking for more pics of these models! Thank you so much for this! I must confess as soon as I clicked that link I started poaching those pics right onto my desk-top! See? This is why build-blogs are a good idea! :thumbs_up_1: :woo_hoo:

Rob wrote:
Spectacular again Neal.

Cheers,

Rob


Hey Rob! Good to see you over here on MW. Thanks for stopping by! :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:17 am 
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bgire wrote:
callen wrote:
It looked like you used the same sections indicated on the plan, while omitting the middle four or five for simplicity's sake. Is that right? I'd like for my lower hull sections to line up with yours.


Yes, that's the method I'm using: I paste the original plan as a background layer in my drawing soft and I directly draw over the sections...
Always NO measurement and maximum accuracy... just keeping the cool part of model building :thumbs_up_1:
_Bruno


Yes yes... my friend of the perfected techniques. :cool_2: I'm going to be working to size my archive plans to 350th so I can use them as templates in a similar way. :thumbs_up_1:

MichelB wrote:
This is ridicilous, but in a good way! :woo_hoo:


You know Michel, there's quite a large part of my life that could be described that way... And not just modeling. :big_grin:

Devin wrote:
Fantastic idea and it looks great so far.


Thanks Devin! Good to hear from you. :wave_1:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:27 am 
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Holy tookah Neal!

This is awesome, just AWESOME. :thumbs_up_1:

Can't wait for more updates, because this one has got it all; subject matter, innovative techniques, and a skillful hand.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:36 am 
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Hi, Callen

A wonderful and interesting project !!!

I love such "early times" ironclads because are not so well known and surely not much modelled......

Be sure that I'll follow your thread with the greatest interest and pleasure !!!

Ciao and happy modeling !!

Jp

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:10 pm 
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Very nice! I'll be watching to see how you'll finish that hull.. :thumbs_up_1:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Tom L. wrote:
Holy tookah Neal!

This is awesome, just AWESOME. :thumbs_up_1:

Can't wait for more updates, because this one has got it all; subject matter, innovative techniques, and a skillful hand.


Hey Tom! Been enjoying those Venetian pics lately. :cool_2: Makes me a little guilty because I still have some carracks to finish. A couple of more weeks with the Solferino, and I'll have to take a little break and get cracking on the 'old tubs' again.

Is it just me, or do ironclads garnish more interest than carracks? :huh:

JP64 wrote:
Hi, Callen

A wonderful and interesting project !!!

I love such "early times" ironclads because are not so well known and surely not much modelled......

Be sure that I'll follow your thread with the greatest interest and pleasure !!!

Ciao and happy modeling !!

Jp


Yes! I agree and for the same reason. Retro-future, Steam-Punk or whatever you want to call it. It was a colorful and interesting era.

Bongiorno Jp, and thanks for your interest. The Italians had some wonderful ironclads from this era also... been looking for plans for several of them, alas, without success. :heh:

EJFoeth wrote:
Very nice! I'll be watching to see how you'll finish that hull.. :thumbs_up_1:


Mr. HMS Hood! That build is absolutely stunning! You have taken modeling to a new level. I hope you have a museum in mind for that build when you finish it. Thanks for dropping by! :wave_1:

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