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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:11 am 
To flesh the story out a little.
Of those that have stated to me that the IJN used RN paint stocks held at Singapore during the war, one is worthy of mention.
In September 1973 I was in Japan and while there I spent a day with the Naval Constructor S Fukui in his house in Yokohama.
Right after the fall of Singapore, he was sent there to assess/evaluate the situation in respect of using the dockyard facilities and to gather any data that might be of value. An interesting assignment to be sure. This work took several months, as one would expect.
He recounted some of the things that he did and with a general overview of the use of the base.
The most important and first thing that was done was to get the large drydock back into operation. I remember him saying that this was achieved by around mid year. Used from this time on for routine dockings, boiler cleanings and the like, bottom/hull scraping, repairs, and-----re-painting using the stocks left behind by the RN.

Anecdotal as defined by the Oxford; "an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay". For you, I hope that this would be the latter and not the former. For me it was first hand.

I trust that this account is of some small value to you and others.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:18 am 
As a post script to the above, while in Japan I was given some paint samples of the various greys used by the IJN during the war. Unfortunately these were lost in one of the several house moves that I made in the nineteen eighties. Things happen.


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 Post subject: Singapore Repaints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:47 am 
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It would be helpful to know what paints were being stocked at Singapore in 1941. One would have expected AP 507A, B & C, and likely buff. But other RN camo colours? What other ships were stationed out there at the time, and what schemes/colours were they wearing?

Losing those IJN samples--for shame! Now, what about those samples of MSD and MSL?

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 Post subject: Re: Singapore Repaints
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:20 am 
The troulbe with you Mr Synder is that you want everything.
I do not know of any RN ships painted up while at Singapore in any type of disruptive camouflage. I would think with a fair degree of certainy that paint stocks would only be the standard 507 range.


John @ WEM wrote:
It would be helpful to know what paints were being stocked at Singapore in 1941. One would have expected AP 507A, B & C, and likely buff. But other RN camo colours? What other ships were stationed out there at the time, and what schemes/colours were they wearing?

Losing those IJN samples--for shame! Now, what about those samples of MSD and MSL?


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 Post subject: Of course...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:00 am 
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...I want everything, and I want it NOW! I'm a Yank, after all. :eyebrows:

The 507 series jibes with what I would have thought, but we'll never know for sure, will we?

Got some lovely single malt here--including a new bottle of Penderyn (the Welsh whiskey)....

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:13 pm 
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For those unfamiliar with the name Shizuo Fukui, Mr. Fukui is the primary source of almost all the postwar IJN information, and as close to an umimpeachable source as exists. As a Naval Constructor, he was involved in a wide range of ship building, repair, refit and design activities throughout the war, primarily at Kure, Yokosuka & Maizuru, plus the stint at Singapore.

Postwar, he helped the Allies with the remaining data on the IJN & made historical preservation of this information the focus of his life. He spent 40 years gathering,organizing and publishing this information. He also joined the Japanese Maritime Safety Agency for a few years, designing patrol boats fo the agency.

Incidentally, one of his sons was/is the CEO of Honda Motor Corp.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:25 pm 
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ar wrote:
Anecdotal as defined by the Oxford; "an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay". For you, I hope that this would be the latter and not the former. For me it was first hand.


Until I had the name it was a little of both...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:50 pm 
THank you for giving a very brief history of the man. It helps in this case.
During the course of my visit he spoke of many things naval, almost all on the pre-war and wartime aspects of IJN ship design and function; quite interesting. He went over in detail his favourite class, which was the Agano. He stated that this class was the best of all classes built, primarily because the design was conservative as opposed to previous ones in which too much had been attempted.
His favourite individual ship was the command cruiser Oyodo. He pulled out the builders plans for this ship "as built", and then the set for her after refit late in the war, going over both sets IN DETAIL as to how and why. Good stuff.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:54 pm 
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ar wrote:
THank you for giving a very brief history of the man. It helps in this case.
During the course of my visit he spoke of many things naval, almost all on the pre-war and wartime aspects of IJN ship design and function; quite interesting. He went over in detail his favourite class, which was the Agano. He stated that this class was the best of all classes built, primarily because the design was conservative as opposed to previous ones in which too much had been attempted.
His favourite individual ship was the command cruiser Oyodo. He pulled out the builders plans for this ship "as built", and then the set for her after refit late in the war, going over both sets IN DETAIL as to how and why. Good stuff.



What constructors deem to be good ships from undermeath their piles of theoretical calculations and hydrodynamic text books would not necessarily be the same ones that fighting commanders might nominate for the same distinction.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:57 pm 
Does this mean then Mr Snyder that you will be revising you IJN colour chips?
AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WELSH WHISKY. I REFUSE TO BELIEVE. WOULD HAVE TO SEE AND TRY IT FIRST, ANECDOTAL AND ALL THAT. HOWEVR IF YOU WERE TO SEND ME A BOTTLE------.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:09 pm 
In his proffessional capacity, Fukui sometimes went to sea and also took note of reports from from ship commanders.
A question; has there been published any comments from ship captains on this matter?


chuck wrote:
ar wrote:
THank you for giving a very brief history of the man. It helps in this case.
During the course of my visit he spoke of many things naval, almost all on the pre-war and wartime aspects of IJN ship design and function; quite interesting. He went over in detail his favourite class, which was the Agano. He stated that this class was the best of all classes built, primarily because the design was conservative as opposed to previous ones in which too much had been attempted.
His favourite individual ship was the command cruiser Oyodo. He pulled out the builders plans for this ship "as built", and then the set for her after refit late in the war, going over both sets IN DETAIL as to how and why. Good stuff.



What constructors deem to be good ships from undermeath their piles of theoretical calculations and hydrodynamic text books would not necessarily be the same ones that fighting commanders might nominate for the same distinction.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:36 pm 
No, I don't know of any published captain's comments on Japanese ships. But I suspect that few captains would ever speak evil of the ships they commanded.
I also suspect that the Japanese navy, like most other navies, would be a somewhat inbred organization in which collective wisdom on the relative merits of different ship flow as unwritten institutional knowledge. With the disbanding of the IJN these collective wisdoms would make their way into Japanese post war lore about the IJN and would crop up in various publications, remembrance groups, etc.

-Chuck


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:44 pm 
See my note in the History and Technology section if you would.


Anonymous wrote:
No, I don't know of any published captain's comments on Japanese ships. But I suspect that few captains would ever speak evil of the ships they commanded.
I also suspect that the Japanese navy, like most other navies, would be a somewhat inbred organization in which collective wisdom on the relative merits of different ship flow as unwritten institutional knowledge. With the disbanding of the IJN these collective wisdoms would make their way into Japanese post war lore about the IJN and would crop up in various publications, remembrance groups, etc.

-Chuck


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:03 pm 
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I believe it possible, though very difficult, that one could trace what paint stocks were sent to Singapore by going through the Admiralty files on bases, supply and requisitions.

It can't have all been slung and the evidence has likely remained untouched for years, because the above is rather esoteric.
Also I cannot think of any detailed archival study of the RN's foreign bases during WW2 to have ever been undertaken.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:36 pm 
Young Laurenec I believe that you have misunderstood. I meant the last posts dealing with IJN ship design, not colours.


Laurence Batchelor wrote:
I believe it possible, though very difficult, that one could trace what paint stocks were sent to Singapore by going through the Admiralty files on bases, supply and requisitions.

It can't have all been slung and the evidence has likely remained untouched for years, because the above is rather esoteric.
Also I cannot think of any detailed archival study of the RN's foreign bases during WW2 to have ever been undertaken.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:57 pm 
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I didn't move it, someone else did, and yes I did think you meant the whole thread and I assume the person who moved it did also.

By the way as an aside there are many people asking for RN camouflage assistance below, perhaps you might be able to help them?
Many of them waiting for help for some time!
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/BB/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=1c10967c2b8c1c38d6b54e179ecdd377


Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:03 pm 
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Captain Tameichi Hara, a highly experienced DD skipper - prewar Asagumo, wartime - Amatsukaze & Shigure, assumed command of the Agano class CL Yahagi in December 1944. He thought pretty highly of her.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:05 pm 
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It was the first and only cruiser he commanded though and he would not of course been able to compare it with other classes in the IJN, only to the old and modern destroyers he had commanded previously.

Despite this, from my reading of his recently republished book, his opinions do seem to hold water with me.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:13 pm 
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Interesting that Agano was the first Japanese cruiser design since Yubari do be designed completely free of the "Kampon Wave" and all it's internal and external implications.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:39 pm 
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ar wrote:
Does this mean then Mr Snyder that you will be revising you IJN colour chips?


There'd be a better chance that Randy would if you still had the aforementioned lost paint chips. :big_grin: :wink_3.gif

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