Question about IJN Shinano Air Group.

[paulors]

Dear all,

Have a question here for the IJN experts. I am reading the "Shinano!" book, by Captain Joseph F. Enright, and found an interesting information concerning air operations in this huge carrier. Author states that on 11 november 1944, during builders' trials, a group of aircrafts under Commander Shiga conducted several tests, landing and taking off. Seems to me that this was the only time aircraft operated from Shinano and also something that could be used in a future model of this ship. So, here comes my question. Is there any information around concerning numbers and types of aircrafts used in the 11november tests? Same book states that planned Shinano air group would have Zero, Grace and Myrt types, but no information is given concerning which ones were used during the test.

Best regards,

Paulo Roberto

[ajkochev]

I don't have a definitive answer, but I'd say it would make sense to test the planes that were planning to be deployed with the carrier. Out of the three you listed I'd say the Myrt was the likelyest test plane. It was the newest and bigest of the three at the time the Shinnano was launched. The others were smaller and had a year or more of service before the Myrt was made. Again, this is just a educated guess.

[Dan K]

IIRC, this topic was discussed not too long ago on the j-aircraft.com IJN ship board, with input from some Japanese members. Unfortunately, the thread has rolled off but several types were tested that day. THe landing gear of one type (can't remember which one) collapsed upon landing, but everything else was satisfactory. I recall a B7A2 Grace, a Sauin, a Tenzan, Jill, Kate, couple of Zeros, possibly a Shiden-Kai. Not sure about a Reppu prototype.

This information may be available in Gakken #22 or the Kojinsha IJN CV Mechaism book, or one of the Fukui volumes, but its all in Japanese.

FWIW

[Werner]

Remember, Shinano was going to function differently than an ordinary carrier. As I recall, one of the uses included acting as a "relay" carrier for the unarmored types to the rear. As such, she would have had to operate everything in the inventory. Kind of an interesting idea.

When the Midway was commissioned, the USN found her "too large" to use effectively at capacity with 1945-vintage aircraft. Fortunately, they solved that with the drastic increase in size of jet aircraft in the years immediately following.

[paulors]

Dear ajkochev, Dan K and Werner,

Many thanks for the very interesting pieces of information!!

Best regards,

Paulo Roberto

[Sauragnmon]

Hmm, you say she was planned to be able to operate everything in the inventory... that's a pretty interesting thought that comes to mind, of doing a CV Shinano and having a few Shindens on the deck. That would look pretty damn cool in my opinion.. I guess I'll have to ammend my late-war what-if carrier plan. looks like there's Another Yamato hull in the stars... not that I mind.

[Werner]

... doing a CV Shinano and having a few Shindens on the deck. That would look pretty damn cool in my opinion...

Yes, that was my first thought when I saw this thread.

[chuck]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Shinden had any provision for carrier operation whatsoever, or were designed to be adaptable to carrier operation in a later version. Its tail prop would probably make it almost impossible for it to catch any sort of deck wire.

[ajkochev]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Shinden had any provision for carrier operation whatsoever, or were designed to be adaptable to carrier operation in a later version. Its tail prop would probably make it almost impossible for it to catch any sort of deck wire.

Yes, but it still would look cool. Maybe a fantasy IJN carrier build?

[Werner]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Shinden had any provision for carrier operation whatsoever, or were designed to be adaptable to carrier operation in a later version. Its tail prop would probably make it almost impossible for it to catch any sort of deck wire.

Yes, I agree, but it's overall shape does not prohibit the possibility. It is, in fact, fairly similar to the Vought Cutlass from the 1950s.

f7u_001.jpg

[chuck]

Vought Cutlass doesn't have a rear mounted prop to foul the arrester wire.

[Werner]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean the Shinden couldn't have been fit with one. I personally see it as a very long retractable from forward of the center of mass, which would trail aft of the propeller. That would cause the plane to pitch up rather than down aft when it was hooked.

Do we know the landing characteristics of Shinden? perhaps it could land at a much slower speed, obviating the need for a hook.

[linux]

This message was posted on j-aircraft.com by Yutaka Iwasaki on 17th June 2005:

On Japanese 'Bikers Station' magazine, June-2005 issue, Mr. YASUO NARUMI(ex. IJN mechanic) witnessed the CV Shinano's days from sea trial to her death.
According to him, he observed speed test, full turn test(both port/starboard) and aviation test. No accurate date on the issue. He mentioned thus.
Once aviation test began, flight command bridge(where Mr. NARUMI at action stations, 10m aft of navigation bridge) took charge of the ship control, ordering the best fit ship speed against the wind for the landing airplane.
The bridge had no radio facility, so each plane first flew by the carrier satrboard. NARUMI distinguished and reported the plane type, then the Shinano's speed were adjusted.
He counted up the tested planes. The fighters were Zero, Raiden and Shiden-Kai. Bombers were type 97, type99, Suisei, Tenzan, and the Ryusei.
He knew Raiden and Shiden-Kai were land based intercepter but both had temporally equipped arresting hook.
He also thought the difficulty of the Raiden landing because of its small wing ,high landing speed, fat engine diameter and hard landing visibility.(Ah! Vought F4U Corsair like) But the test pilot landed swiftly and easily.
On the other hand the Ryusei, gull wing powerfull fast torpedoe bomber, did hard landing. At that time, NARUMI thought the Shinao was too slow for the Ryusei. The Ryusei seemed approaching too low and struck the aft-end slope by its landing gears, jumped and stooped.
All other planes were immediately downed to the hangar by fore elevator, and lifted up by aft elevator. And departured to return back to their land base. (Shinano had separated fore(fighter) and aft(bomber) hangar. Through the betw'n wall there were slip way to transfer the planes over the funnel duct)
But that Ryusei must stay a night on board. Next day NARUMI himself operated the 11t deck crane, took the Ryusei from the flight deck to the barge alongside.
Shinano's deck was too high so it was difficul for NARUMI to set the Ryusei on the barge smoothly.

Just before the last/first voyage, NARUMI again operated the crane. At this time he handled thirty OHKA(Cherry Blossom:BAKA)s. They all sunk with the gigant carrier, but NARUMI picked up by DD YUKIKAZE.

[Lesforan]

The Shinden arresting-wire problem could have been avoided by eliminating the propeller, and replacing the radial engine with an internally-mounted gas turbine or two (like the Cutlass had). However, the Cutlass was notoriously difficult to fly, although in layout it was similar to the F-14. This plane was a couple decades ahead of the control technology needed for it.

Actually, what I have read about Shinano was that it was intended to be an aircraft carrier support ship. Its small airgroup was intended for defensive purposes, and its huge hanger capacity would be used to transport replacement aircraft to conventional fleet carriers and remote land airbases. Therefore, while it would need to operate a great variety of aircraft, it would not do so in a combat role.

I think the Japanese really screwed up on this. A huge carrier like Shinano could probably take the place of two or three conventional carriers in a strike role.
What the IJN really needed was not more carriers or aircraft, it was more pilots.

[Werner]

Les, I think this description of Shinano's planned employment (and I have read this version, too) is a misinterpretation of the actual plan. My understanding is she was to operate in the van 100-200 miles ahead of the main carrier force. The attack force would arm and launch from Amagi types in the rear and refuel during a stopover on Shinano before (or after) hitting the target. She would have used her size and strength to absorb punishment which the Amagis couldn't.

[Sauragnmon]

Thought about shinden with arrestor... the tail gears were placed in the bottom of the tail... well, let's think... If you take the Shinden, and set the arrestor hook, perhaps even a twin hook, in the tails just ahead of the tail wheels, it might work. Or, similarly, a single hook centerline on the fuselage, designed to hook ahead of the gears. Also, as pointed, the J7W2 could actually deal with the prop issue, since it would have had a single Nakajima jet in place of the engine. Not to mention, the Shinano's deck is rather sizable, so you could in principle land without hooks at a lower approach velocity and a high nosewind so you have the benefits not only of the nose wind drag, but the carrier's forward velocity to extend the relative deck length in the perspective of the aircraft. Not to mention, the Shinden would be well suited on a carrier since you could afford a rolling launch and not worry as much about the takeoff angle being slightly steep once she clears the bow edge of the flight deck. One of the potentially higher issues would be the long-legged nature of the Shinden, but it was the thought of seeing them on the deck, either for transport or for semi-practical emergency launch. I've been toying with trying to find some carrier that could in principle launch the J7W, and in thought, the Shinano is likely the biggest contender in the what-if category, being that she'd actually have a big enough deck to do things like a rolling launch and full deck landing, if the planes had been unmodified.

[Dan K]

To clarify, I wrote Shi-den, not Shinden. This is the Kawanashi N1K2-J George that originated as a float fighter and proved to be a very successful design in its low wing configuration.

[paulors]

Hi Linux,

This text from j-aircraft is a very interesting one. Now I have the information needed to model Shinano as it appeared during flight test. Thanks!!!! And the other comments concerning the use of specif aircraft types are super too. Thanks you all!!!

Best regards,

Paulo Roberto

[Sauragnmon]

I know fully well that you wrote and meant the N1K2-J Shiden as opposed to the J7W1/2 Shinden. It simply goes to conjecture that they were testing Shinano with land-based fighters as well, such as the Shiden, which goes to the thought that obviously Shinano must have had a long enough deck that they could actually launch/land them on the deck, which fuelled and stoked the idea of Shindens on a CV in my mind. Assuming they chock the wheels and keep the plane aft so she can run the engine up to full power before the takeoff roll. Most land planes have such a long takeoff roll because of the fact they go from idle to full power with nothing holding them to build that thrust. Chock the wheels, you'd either slow the plane, or build the thrust, not to mention if you turn into the wind, a typical practice for a carrier on launch, the plane has a higher relative velocity when starting, so it can get to its minimum flight speed rather quickly.

[Dan K]

Actually, the Shi-den would be a navalized version with a tail hook. A navalized version was always part of the design plan.