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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:05 pm 
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Hybrid Warships - the conceptualization and design of a warship that incorporates a small ammount of heavy firepower and an aircraft compliment. This could include ships like the Mogami and Ise, though I'm looking more to the purpose built designs.

Has anybody ever thought of these designs, and building a model of them? I know the Germans did design studies on them, has anybody done scratchbuilds, and do they have pictures? I'm looking for some inspiration and ideas.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:42 pm 
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Oyodo - though I suppose her firepower isn't very heavy.

Proposed upgrade for Iowa class in the '70-'80s - add small hangar and skiramps to the fantail/turret 3 so that Harriers and helicopters can operate off of them.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:05 pm 
Most Japanese hydrids were products of necessity. I woulnd't call Oyodo a hydrid just because someone added a few guns by accident, barely enough to hold off a destroyer.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:00 pm 
Sauragnmon wrote:
....

Has anybody ever thought of these designs, and building a model of them? I know the Germans did design studies on them, has anybody done scratchbuilds, and do they have pictures? I'm looking for some inspiration and ideas.

Thanks


American firm of Gibbs and Cox designed a very large hybrid battleship carrier for the Soviet Union in late 1930s. I can't find a picture of it right now, but it had 12 16" guns in 4 triple turrets in the Montana layout. The smallish flight deck sits on top of the superstructure, and stretch between the 1fore and aft 16" turret groups. But it is a real flight deck for launching and receiving real wheeled aircraft, not just a flat parking space for float planes like on Ise and Hyuaga. The battleship tower mast and stack is offset to the starboard. The hanger is accommodated inside the supersturcture beneath the flight deck. The flight deck does not span the entire width of the ship. Instead the secondary armament is arrayed on either side of the hanger/superstructure in a layout similar to contemporary American battleships.

The idea was to provide the Soviets with a multi-purpose core to their nascent pacific fleet. This would give the Soviets a jump start in their efforts to add to the headaches of the IJN. But despite the huge size of this ship (70,000 ton +), the size of the flight deck and air wing is still really pretty pathetic. Considering the holocaust of burning aviation fuel and exploding aviation munition that usually befalls a heavily hit carrier, giving a battleship such an aviation facility must seriously reduce its actual combat value.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:07 pm 
Foeth wrote:
Most Japanese hydrids were products of necessity. I woulnd't call Oyodo a hydrid just because someone added a few guns by accident, barely enough to hold off a destroyer.


Tone can be called a hybrid if she carried more planes.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:16 pm 
BTW, if the Russian Kirov class guided missile ships are to be called battlecruisers as is common in the west, then the Russian carrier Kutnesov fits the definition of a hybrid battlecruiset/carrier. Her main anti-ship and short-range anti-air missile firepower is very close to those of Kirov, and by volume and weight far heavier than any ship in the US Navy.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:36 pm 
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:wave_1:

Here is a drawing study made by Hervé Perrot from the FrenchMarineForum, when much Guys comment a rebuilt of the BB Jean Bart in 1970.
This kind of BB is easy to be rebuilt as Assault Ship.

Image

The position for the elevator is certainly better at the stern (idem to Jeanne d'Arc)
Note the tower with much heavy rebuilt & new radars installation.
The Exocets, 100mm turrets mle1968 & Masurca missiles.


Jef :thumbs_up_1:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:44 am 
Here is a link to a discussion about the Gibbs & Cox design of hybrid battleship/carrier for the Soviet Navy.

http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/viewtopic.php?t=177&mforum=warshipprojects


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:45 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:06 am 
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Yeah, the idea had hit me of a vision of a modernized, rebuilt ship similar to the Richelieu class. The heavy forward armament and the aft deck design begged to be levelled off and turned into a helicopter operations facility. Though a step further on the thought, since some warships today have a squared off stern, why not simply square off the stern from the widest of the beam, providing more deck space. Additionally, position some AA along the aft side below the deck.

Though I have to admit, I've never been much of a fan for side elevators, they just strike me as a bullseye screaming "Place Missile Here"

On the subject of the Japanese ones, I never understood why they made the hangar and storage facility so small on the Ise. But then, they were more of a hastily constructed design, and hardly built for the purpose. I have wondered, sometimes, what it might have been like if they'd built the Mogami conversion onto the Tone hull, being no sacrifice of firepower, it might have been something more interesting. Granted, dedicating their hybrids to operating scouts was part of what had me confused, and at some point I'm going to do a very minor What If build of the Mogami, with some aircraft a little more task-oriented, including Rufe fighters and Seiran bombers. While you may think, at first, it seems redundant, putting attack planes on a hybrid such as the Seiran, consider a battle squadron, with a couple such warships, using their Seiran to chase the enemy. Either the enemy turns into the prime position for the warships and gets hammered, or else they avoid the warships and face the bombers. As I said, very minor work, but it should prove to be interesting.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:39 am 
Ise and Hyuga were emergency conversions to get some aerial assets to the Japanese fleet in less time than it takes to replace the 4 carriers lost in Midway. So the conversion was constrained by time pressure. In any case, the Ise, Hygua, Mogami and Tone classes were perhaps not true hybrids because their air groups consisted only of spotters and reconn float planes. So they were basically just like most other WWII era cruisers and battleships, almost all of which carried similar assets. The only difference is the Japanese ships carried somewhat more than was usual.

IMHO, To be really considered a hybrid, the airwing embarked would have to have some significant degree of strike and combat air patrol capability so as to give the hybrid a real dedicated carrier component.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:29 pm 
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Timmy C wrote:
Oyodo - though I suppose her firepower isn't very heavy.

Proposed upgrade for Iowa class in the '70-'80s - add small hangar and skiramps to the fantail/turret 3 so that Harriers and helicopters can operate off of them.


Im planning on making one of the upgraded Iowa's(prob more fantasy than what was proposed).......if i can find the time. I jsut gotta get the pe harriers and the free time.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:15 am 
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HHHMMMMMMMM.... he says looking at the second tamiya New Jersey kit in his stash


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:48 am 
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The Kriegsmarine had plans for a class of these ships flugdeckkruzer,s A1,A2,A3,A4 Proposed classes look at http://www.German-navy.de


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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:53 am 
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I know quite well about the ideas, that's where I actually got the concept for building the A2a in the first place. I'm also in regular contact with the owner of the site. I just have to get the stuff I need to get started on the construction of the flight deck, I actually have the side 15cm guns for the project already.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:17 am 
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I am guessing that the proto-hybrid ship would be HMS Furious of 1917. 160 ft flightdeck forward and a 18" gun turrent aft. Even though she was a design failure at this point, modifications eventually turned her into a damn decent carrier, especially for the '20's.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:14 am 
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There are some mentions of Hybrids elsewhere on the boards, if you scroll down through this viewtopic.php?f=60&t=36419 you'll see my US version.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Yeah, the CLV concept was certainly an interesting one at the time - I saw a pic of it over on Shipbucket, and thought it quite an interesting concept.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:58 am 
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Much like most of the "Luftwaffe 46" stuff or its ground equivalent ("Panther XXXIV with rail gun and laser optics"...) there is no indication in the available sources that these designs were ever anything else than very general studies into the general nature of such ships. Thus, they differ considerably from the Russian designs and in particular from the American cruiser projects.

Incidentally, the American design was if not exactly useful, then at least feasible. The Großflugzeugträger were nonsensical.

Jorit

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:40 pm 
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It would really depend on how they were fitted in some regards. The Grossflugzeugkreuzer AIIa wasn't too bad in concept - thirty aircraft, on a Bismarck-sized hull, a dozen 15cm guns with only two in casemates per side, 6x11"/54.5. It wasn't ludicrously overdone, and it would have retained some degree of striking power with a quantity of reasonable delivery. The GFK concept in Germany was for a means to get air capacity out in the raiding groups, either for defence, or for far-ranging anti-escort activity. The concept isn't extremely far-fetched, and unlike the Ise's and Mogamis, they would have been ground-up designs and more capable, in theory.

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